[Tarr]

They didn't die out, the matrons "discontinued" making them as they had rebelled against the matrons rule.

The matrons just decided to recreate an old species possibly due to war with the jaghut, they probably have some way of controlling what they give birth to, although the egg part doesn't sound that crazy either (if the matrons lay the eggs!).

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Tarr;299393 said:

@apt - The nahruk were not created

The Nahruk were created to build and fly the citadel

?

Im slightly confused by the point here- are you saying that the original Nahruk were born by chance and then later recreated by the Matrons?

[Tarr]

No they were originally created (by "created" I mean the matron's gave birth to them) as the matrons scientists and engineers but were too smart to blindly follow the matrons, so they attempted to rebel and claim freedom.

The matrons immediatly tried to put a stop to this with what remained of their nahruk and their Kell hunters.

After the war the matrons were worried about the Nahruk rebelling again so they stopped making them.

Later on in a war against possibly the Jaghut the matrons realised they needed help so they made some more Nahruk to build sky keeps for them.

Whether these Nahruk remained loyal or not Im unsure as we haven't seen any but the sky keeps in the imperial warren seems to suggest they did.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Oh right, I get it.

Yeah, that would make sense as the Skykeeps in the Imperial Warren are full of KCCM, not just Nahruk, as you say.

Unless the Matrons and non-Nahruk managed to capture/discover some undamaged skykeeps and occupy them.

Although that seems unlikely as we know that the Nahruk would win every battle, then the Matron would destroy them with her last act, so the Skykeeps would likely also have been destroyed.

[lasombra]

think u got it wrong. The Short tails came 1ste on the evolutinary timeline

imas - human

Shortail - long tail

they were not "discontinued"

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Thelomen Toblerone;299380 said:

PErhaps A'dat refers to the Nah'ruk that stayed loyal/rebelled specifically?

As for who led the Nah'ruk, it makes sense they had some sort of chief representative, as we know from RG they parleyed with Silchas, and it would be impractical not to have one Narhuk or a small council representing them.

Which makes you wonder if this leader will play any part in the novels- at least with retrospective views of the Tiste/KC wars.

It will be very interesting to have some good solid communication with the K'Chain. Yes, Che'malle is no longer definitive, it seems....

Betcha ten bucks K'Chain talk in loud beeps and high-pitched sounds.

[Aptorian]

I've found Kallors account in MoI, p. 592-93.

They were extinct:

Quote

"suffice to say, an ancient breed was... ressurected, returned from extinction by the matrons; a more primitive version of the K'Chain Che'Malle themselves.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Ah, now that's intriguing that it says "more primitive"- if anything, from what we know, the Nahruk seem more advanced- certainly technologically, and it follows from that intelligence-wise too.

[Tarr]

@Lasombra

The matrons came before the short tails otherwise who gave birth to them?

And the Kell hunters are quoted as being the first born so they probably predated the Nahruk!

[Aptorian]

Tarr, where does it say that the Kell Hunters are the first born? They are described as warriors or guards, that's all I've ever heard.

Also, Erikson does use a kind of logic to create his races, and a creature starting out WITH SWORDS FOR HANDS would not seem like the first step in an evolutionary process. Rather it would seem exactly like what they've been described as - specifically bread warrior drones.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Im concerned as to the birthing process of Kell Hunters. I sure hope they're born from eggs, or OUCH, that's gotta hurt.

[lasombra]

Tar maybe the nahruk had diff matrons?Hence the rebelion.

Maybe they never had matrons?The matrons have like a hive mind control over the longtails. SHort tails ddint like that


Short tails prolly never had Matrons

[lasombra]

Tarr;299430 said:

@Lasombra

The matrons came before the short tails otherwise who gave birth to them?

And the Kell hunters are quoted as being the first born so they probably predated the Nahruk!

it is clearly stated in the books that nahruk predates longtails.
Kell hunters could be the 1ste born of a the "brood"

"The matrons came before the short tails otherwise who gave birth to them?"

They could ave had partners?

Oh and i forget the whole "1ste born of dragons" thingy

[Tarr]

@Apt

It says the Kell are the first born in MOI, I think it's keruli but i'm not sure as I haven't the book to hand.

@Lasomba

All the K'chain are born from the matrons and it's either rake or pannion in MOI talking about how the matron is scared of moon spawn that confirms the Nahruk being the Matrons children.

But there is that female in RG and Im not sure whether she's a matron (she may be smaller but she's got a Kell hunter) so maybe they adjusted to life without the matrons.

@Thelomen

I have absolutely no idea but they would probably be smaller and the eggs would prevent the swords hurting the matron, but still not a clue.

*Thinking of doing degree in K'chain breeding process*

[Aptorian]

Tarr;299554 said:

All the K'chain are born from the matrons and it's either rake or pannion in MOI talking about how the matron is scared of moon spawn that confirms the Nahruk being the Matrons children.

What? How?

[Tiger_sword]

I always thought of it as similar to bees that is, there is one queeen (matron) who can give birth to either sex but only she can reproduce. I believe that the female in RG wasn't a matron or even will become one because she doesn't have a red throat like matrons (and redmasks red mask!) although its not impossible that she could just be young. I seam to remember references that the male was trying to impress her implying a want to mate so its all rather confusing!!!

I would probably say that the matrons gave birth to the first generation of a particular group still, who is the father?

[Tarr]

@ Tiger sword

maybe like godzilla they are a-sexual but I do agree with your Bee anology

@ Apt

The gist is of the conversation is that she (the matron) remembers her children (the Nahruk) and their using of sky keeps against her (and the other matrons), when she ripped that tear in chaos it may have been to get away from the Nahruk.

I'm reasonably sure the convo is between toc and pannion

[Mentalist]

hmmm
My take on this (lost somewhere in the crazy theories thread) was that the KCNR came first--"the first-born of dragons". they did not have a matron. The very reason for the schism, afaik, was that the KCNR refused to be subservient tot he matrons--a subservience that would be natural if they were insect-like and all bred by the matron-queen.
KCCM (the long-tails), were the second breed of Eleint offsprings, with a matron-based social structure imposed onto them, in order to facilitate centralized control.
The re-creation of of the KCNR by the matrons was probably sorcerous in nature--I don't think that it'd be such a huge undertaking if it was natural. The resurrection is supposed to have been a "pride-driven folly", so it was probably to demonstrate the extent of their powers, specificaly the sorcerous powers.

[Optimus Prime]

Perhaps when Kallor says "more primitive" it is because of the Nahruk's tendency towards ferocity and lack of unity like the KCCM. Maybe the Nahruk were never a hive society like the long tails were, and that's what made them "more primitive" in the long tails (and others) eyes.

Also maybe the long tails considered the short tails lack of magic (even though they were more tech aspected due to the sky keeps) primal.

[Mentalist]

afaik, the Matrons were so damn powerful, because they had the pooled power of all the K'Chain in their brood at their sole disposal.
the KCNR refused to give up their power to the Matrons, which is why they got into a war in the first place.
Based on some comments in RG, I am even more inclined to believe that the "hive" structure was a later imposition on the original K'Chain society.