[chthonian]

I think I discovered how its made, dunno if this has been posted before though, but here goes.

Two quotes, first is a section involving Cutter and Scillara while they are traveling to Otataral Island, and the second is one from Cartheron Crust (both quotes from tBH, p699 and p739 respectively).

Quote

The firestones tore down on all sides as Cutter struggled to help Scillara clamber onto the pitching fragment. Those firestones - they were smaller than pebbles, despite the fist-sized holes they had punched through the Grief. Smaller than pebbles - more like grains of sand, glowing bright green, like spatters of glass their colour changing, almost instantly, into rust red as they plummeted into the depths.

Quote

Four dromons, visible now, rounding into the bay, backlit by one of the ugliest storms he'd ever seen. Well, not entirely true - he'd seen the like once before, hadn't he? And what'd come of it? Not a whole lot... except that is, a mountain of otataral...

Although separated by 40 pages in the book, I believe these two quotes refer to one and the same storm, as maybe 5 pages before the Crust quote, Banaschar refers to a green illumination over the northern sky, a similar phenomenon to what the marines and everyone else in the Malazan fleet sees earlier in the book. My theory is that water somehow cauterizes the pieces of the Jade giants, and said chemical reaction makes otataral. To clarify, its not made to hold the Jade Giants as Heboric thinks in DG, it is a by-product of the Jade giants crashing into earth (and subsequently, water). Otataral Isle has just built up over thousands of years of these giants hitting the water in that locale, and then sand and such has washed up there, making it a permanent fixture.

All this being said though, I still cannot explain the otataral-aspected dragon. Maybe its just a counter to all the other dragons being the embodiment of the warrens, i.e. Sorrit (the slain dragon in the KCCM sky-keep) being 1/3 of the warren of Serc. Dunno, just a thought.

[Aptorian]

It sounds unlikely to me. Sorry.

Also, the quote from Crust, wasn't that referring to a Malazan mage battle that took place on land?

[Mentalist]

hmmm
I'm more inclined to go with Heboric and Treach on this--Otataral is created as a backlash of saome seriously powerful magic.
hmm come to think of it...

Spoiler

in RG, we are told of a valley where magic is "dead", as it has been all used up, presumably as part of the ritual of Tellan. Could it be that the soil actually contains otataral, but it has been covered up by the sediment, since no one really lived there, once the Imass went T'lan.

[chthonian]

what malazan mage-battle on land? the last scrap that there is is when QB faces off the edur warlocks. and i've read it all so i know that there are other theories as to how its come about, but none of them actually reveal anything actually being created, apart from the link between blood-oil and otataral. was just the only hard evidence i could find, and given the proximity of the events to the otataral isle, it seemed pretty suspicious. everyones entitled to there opinion of course but yeah... *shrug* just seemed likely, and such, almost finished tBH for the second time and noticing small things such as the above quotes, thus the post.

looking forward to SE clearing things up over the last 3 though.

[greenteam]

kud13;297764 said:

Spoiler

in RG, we are told of a valley where magic is "dead", as it has been all used up, presumably as part of the ritual of Tellan.

this was caused when the soletaken and d'ivers tore a warren to pieces

it's quoted by treach in moi that on that continent the eastlands were turned to molten stone that cooled and became something that defied sorcery

[Mentalist]

you're missing the point.
as Heboric mentions in DG, I believe, otataral may be (it's his theory) created at a place of a powerful unleashing of magic.
The ritual of the beast was one such event (Treach's story)
In Laederon, there was a major showdown between an FA, Iccy and a bunch (several thousands/millions?) T'lan Imass, including a Bonecaster or two (Where blood oil comes from)
my spoiler indicates a massive magic-deadening place in Letheras.
I'm trying to find commonalities, to see a pattern--> massive magic=magic-deadening area.

[Samar_Dev]

It could be related to the Azath, "arising where unchained power threatens life." Either a more primitive form, or being what the Azath are attempting to prevent.

IT seems to be that whatever happens occurs when all of the power/magic is drawn from the surrounding land leaving it dead. And since its been deadened it cannot be for a better word ressurected. But this only seems to cover the younger warrens, or K'ruls warrens. So maybe it means that all of his blood in the area has been sucked up. Would explain why it doesn't effect the Elder warrens.

[D'rek]

Quoting time! Below is the spiel on massive amounts of magic using up energy and possibly making otataral. It should be noted, the magical event that many people think Crust is referring to is a sorcerous battle during the conquest of Quon Tali when Olar Ethil (the soletaken eleint T'lan Imass) was said to have participated on the Malazan side against a large cadre of sorcerors. I think it was the conquest of Kartool, but it might have been somewhere else.

HoC, on Chapter 10, said:

L'oric and Heboric (it rhymes!):
'The first one was found deep in the otataral mines-'
'The first one!'
'Aye. And the contact proved, for those miners who ventured too close, fatal. Or, rather, they disappeared. Leaving no trace. Sections of two others have been discovered - all three veins are now sealed. The giants are... intrudes to our world. From some other realm.'
'Arriving, only to be wrapped in chains of otataral.'
'Ah, you are not without your own knowledge, then. Indeed, it seems their arrival has, each time, been anticipated. Someone, or something, is ensuring that the threat these giants impose is negated-'
'No I think you are wrong, L'oric. It is the very passage - the portal through which each giant comes - that creates the otataral.'
'Are you certain?'
'Of course not. There are too many mysteries surrounding the nature of otataral to be certain of anything. There was a scholar - I forget her name - who once suggested that otataral is created by the annihilation of all that is necessary for sorcery to operate. Like slag with all the ore burned out. She called it the absolute draining of energy - the energy that rightfully exists in all things, whether animate or otherwise.'
'And had she a theory as to how that could occur?'
'Perhaps the magnitude of the sorcery unleashed - a spell that is all-devouring of the energy it fees on.'
'But not even the gods could wield such magic.'
'True, but I think it is nevertheless possible... through ritual, such as a cadre - or army - of mortal sorcerers could achieve.'
'In the manner of the Ritual of Tellann, aye.'
'Or, the calling down of the Crippled God...'

[Mentalist]

once again, A'karonys, your quotes substantiate my lazy recollections
Have rep, good sir!

[Urb]

It occurs to me that there might be a distinction between *magic-deadening area" and otataral. After all, otataral does not work well negating Elder magic (Lorn's sword doesn't affect Tool's magic, the Eres'al/T'Amber is not concerned by the presence of Tavore's sword, more stuff I can't remember right now...), but is very effective towards the new warrens K'rul made (Kruppe is neutralized by Lorn's sword, Poleil is neutralized by Paran using a small otataral splinter, the Claw cannot use magic against Tavore, loads of more stuff...). I also assume this is why blood oil was not enough for Karsa, and therefore SE made him "a warren unto himself", so he can somewhat negate Elder magic as well (while skewering Binadas).

Now, consider this. The two "magic-deadening" areas I can remember were (Reaper's Gale spoiler, do not read if you have not read Reaper's Gale!!!):

Spoiler

The lakebed where Redmask had a small victory over the pursuing Letherii, and Beak's burial site.

In these places, there are no references to otataral at all (directly or indirectly). Instead, the effect is described more as "dead". If otataral was created there, you would expect some of the warren wielding mages to be sick to their stomach, or at least somewhat uncomfortable.

But as is shown by the quotes in chthonian's and A'Karonys' post; when a referense is made to the Jade statues, it is usually accompanied with a direct or indirect mention of otataral.

The otataral dragon is so mysterious it is unnecessary to even consider it in this context at the moment, so my only problem with accepting chthonian's theory is now this (there could be loads more if I remember this stuff wrong, obviously):

A said:

It should be noted, the magical event that many people think Crust is referring to is a sorcerous battle during the conquest of Quon Tali when Olar Ethil (the soletaken eleint T'lan Imass) was said to have participated on the Malazan side against a large cadre of sorcerors. I think it was the conquest of Kartool, but it might have been somewhere else.

I was under the impression that Crust's comment just meant he had vitnessed a "rain of Jade" before. But if you're right about this (that what he saw was a sorcerous battle which was as ugly as the storm he is witnessing in the Bonehunters), that doesn't work with chthonian's theory.

EDIT: Grammar.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

chthonian;297624 said:

I think I discovered how its made, dunno if this has been posted before though, but here goes.

Two quotes, first is a section involving Cutter and Scillara while they are traveling to Otataral Island, and the second is one from Cartheron Crust (both quotes from tBH, p699 and p739 respectively).





Although separated by 40 pages in the book, I believe these two quotes refer to one and the same storm, as maybe 5 pages before the Crust quote, Banaschar refers to a green illumination over the northern sky, a similar phenomenon to what the marines and everyone else in the Malazan fleet sees earlier in the book. My theory is that water somehow cauterizes the pieces of the Jade giants, and said chemical reaction makes otataral. To clarify, its not made to hold the Jade Giants as Heboric thinks in DG, it is a by-product of the Jade giants crashing into earth (and subsequently, water). Otataral Isle has just built up over thousands of years of these giants hitting the water in that locale, and then sand and such has washed up there, making it a permanent fixture.

All this being said though, I still cannot explain the otataral-aspected dragon. Maybe its just a counter to all the other dragons being the embodiment of the warrens, i.e. Sorrit (the slain dragon in the KCCM sky-keep) being 1/3 of the warren of Serc. Dunno, just a thought.

But since otataral anchors the Jade Giants to this realm, wouldn't there have to be some otataral in the water in the first place? Or was it fate that they first descended there?

[Urb]

Ain said:

But since otataral anchors the Jade Giants to this realm, wouldn't there have to be some otataral in the water in the first place? Or was it fate that they first descended there?

Quote

The firestones tore down on all sides as Cutter struggled to help Scillara clamber onto the pitching fragment. Those firestones - they were smaller than pebbles, despite the fist-sized holes they had punched through the Grief. Smaller than pebbles - more like grains of sand, glowing bright green, like spatters of glass their colour changing, almost instantly, into rust red as they plummeted into the depths.

....

[Ammanas]

chthonian;297624 said:

All this being said though, I still cannot explain the otataral-aspected dragon. Maybe its just a counter to all the other dragons being the embodiment of the warrens, i.e. Sorrit (the slain dragon in the KCCM sky-keep) being 1/3 of the warren of Serc. Dunno, just a thought.

I basically agree.

My theory was, just as the Azath arise to counter ascendants and elder gods gone amok, otataral is a response to humans gone amok. Humans only use the lesser warrens and so otataral is sufficient to counter their craziness.

Just as the dragons reflect the aspects of K'rul's blood, one also reflects the negation of said paths. If you accept the theory his blood thinned to make the human accessible warrens, then I propose the otataral was created soon after. The answer to the question of "why doesn't otataral work on elder warrens?" is simple. It's not supposed to. Azath are reserved for elder warren users, sorta a Wu version of "With great power comes great responsibility and penalties. Limited human capability only justifies otataral, not eternal imprisonment.

[D'rek]

The Jade giants are described by Rake as 'objects forged within the realm of Chaos' when he is describing Fener's plight in MoI. I think the statues are just chatoic objects and thus their sorcery is either automatically negated by automatic creation of otataral, or else in all the arrivals of the jade prior to the one in BH, the otataral dragon actively defend the world against them.

[Mentalist]

Ammanas;298380 said:

I basically agree.

My theory was, just as the Azath arise to counter ascendants and elder gods gone amok, otataral is a response to humans gone amok. Humans only use the lesser warrens and so otataral is sufficient to counter their craziness.

Just as the dragons reflect the aspects of K'rul's blood, one also reflects the negation of said paths. If you accept the theory his blood thinned to make the human accessible warrens, then I propose the otataral was created soon after. The answer to the question of "why doesn't otataral work on elder warrens?" is simple. It's not supposed to. Azath are reserved for elder warren users, sorta a Wu version of "With great power comes great responsibility and penalties. Limited human capability only justifies otataral, not eternal imprisonment.

but.. umm.. Letherii use Holds sorcery--which is most def. Elder...
why haven't we heard of otataral in relation to them?

[chthonian]

kud13;298856 said:

but.. umm.. Letherii use Holds sorcery--which is most def. Elder...
why haven't we heard of otataral in relation to them?

Otataral doesn't effect elder sorcery because it was created to counter a new threat, maybe there is some sort of similar effect which destroys the ability to wield the powers of the holds eg. the "magically deadend" area's, where the forces of that area have simply burned out from overuse on one or multiple occasions... Maybe this come about from wielding the holds?


Two more things though, first off, is it generally accepted on these forums that Olar'Ethil is involved in some sort of battle (the one Crust witnesses)? I must've missed this. Reference if you may, although I think I remember Banaschar noting a "green penumbra" earlier in that chapter/passage on Malaz Island.

Ain said:

But since otataral anchors the Jade Giants to this realm, wouldn't there have to be some otataral in the water in the first place? Or was it fate that they first descended there?

Secondly, I am proposing that upon contact with water, the Jade becomes otataral, and thus over millennia, an island has built up and some have missed the water, thus crashing into this island, and being swallowed in otataral "sand" and "chaining" them inplace.