[Ammanas]

The GoTM glossary refers to Oponn as "jesters of chance." My theory is
1) Oponn is more elemental force than god and if the Lord and Lady are slain, a new pair will emerge to take their place. They're simply the manifestation of basic forces.
After re-reading BH, I noticed an exchange I'd overlooked the first read through.

p 763, The Lord--"Tell me, truly, have you any idea--any idea at all--how mightily I struggled to retain our card during that horrendous game? He wanted to drag us out, again, again, and again. It was horrifying."

The Lady--"Can we be so sure, brother, that we comprehend all the players? All of them? What if one hides from us? Just one, wild, unexpected, so very terrible...we could end up in trouble. We could end up...dead."

The Lord--"It was that damned soldier. Stealing our power. The arrogance, to usurp us in our own game. I want his blood."

The Lady--"Cast the knuckles, then, on his fate. Go on. Cast them!

So then it goes on to say the twins were dismayed and terrified when they looked at the knuckles. "Never mess with mortals, dear gods. Never mess with mortals."

2) I wonder if Fiddler could possibly step in for Oponn, if Oponn was killed. Or even more interesting--what if just the Lord was killed?

After the BH game, T'amber mentions Fiddler's game "was like a rock ricocheting down a gorge and everywhere it strikes, it strikes true." All the way back in GoTM, Lorn asked Fiddler if he should be playing his game and whether he was a "Talent." He pretty much tells her to fuck off, he's been doing it for years. Almost sounds like the ability is in his bones, just like Blend's invisibility.

[Aptorian]

You sem to be overlooking another player to consider. The Errant. Oponn more or less holds the position of the Errant in the Deck of Dragons.

When Feather Witch delves into the new warrens, she notes that the twins are occupying the Errants position in the deck. We also see the Errant assail the new warrens, seeminly turning the Holds against the Houses in some fashion we don't understand.

It is possible that the Errant merely uses the power of a greater elemental force. The letherii myths mention a creation myth wherer The Errant shaped dolmen and fire into creation or something like that. Suggesting that the Errant force could be the power of fate or order. But we don't really know anything about these things.

Fiddler has been linked to many things and there are a lot of theories and what ifs. Some connect him to the Queen of Dreams and High House Life, others say he could be the new master of the deck if Paran fell, etc.

[Mentalist]

the "never mess with mortals" comment was (to me, at least), a near-dead giveaway that it was Paran... after all MotD's job description is being the advocate of human interests in the struggles of gods/ascendants.
Fiddler may have the knowledge, but I he only reads fate, he doesn't influence it afaik...

[Aptorian]

So, Kud 13, you now agree with me that Paran has not ascended? eeexcellent *twiddles fingers*

[Mentalist]

???
how does him being Ascendant interferes with the MotD duties?
he's a rebel, after all--he goes against the establishment
he's surely an Ascendant--I won't repeat my arguments, b/c htis is not the place for them. However, since he's been so reluctant to accept power, and due to his argument with Nightchill back in MoI, I firmly believe that he couldn't care less that he himself is an Ascendant, and he's still in it for the regular humans...

[D'rek]

Now this is interesting, because I'd always thought that this part of that section:

Ammanas;296232 said:

The Lord--"It was that damned soldier. Stealing our power. The arrogance, to usurp us in our own game. I want his blood."

The Lady--"Cast the knuckles, then, on his fate. Go on. Cast them!

So then it goes on to say the twins were dismayed and terrified when they looked at the knuckles. "Never mess with mortals, dear gods. Never mess with mortals."

was all referring to Paran. After all, he is a soldier, he stole their power, usurping them in their own game, etc. When they cast the knuckles, the cast is screwed up because they can no longer influence him as he's the MotD. And then the "Never mess with mortals..." bit is very much Paran's trademark dealie.



And since they were talking about things not directly related to the things at hand, I figured that this part:

Ammanas;296232 said:

The Lady--"Can we be so sure, brother, that we comprehend all the players? All of them? What if one hides from us? Just one, wild, unexpected, so very terrible...we could end up in trouble. We could end up...dead."

could also be referring to the greater events taking place, not limited to just the events occuring in Malaz City at that time. In the end I suppose it matters little as they clearly didn't comprehend ST and his buddy Obo.



And finally, I've always found this part strange:

Ammanas;296232 said:

p 763, The Lord--"Tell me, truly, have you any idea--any idea at all--how mightily I struggled to retain our card during that horrendous game? He wanted to drag us out, again, again, and again. It was horrifying."

Strange because in Fiddler's recent game, he did draw out their card. Go figure...

[Thelomen Toblerone]

By George, I think he's got it! That's a decent souning therory to me, makes plenty more sense.

I'm jumping on the A'Karonys bandwagon. Rep!

[Mentalist]

so it WAS Paran. yay, I have supporters!

[Warqueen]

Fid has that precog thing going for him...which may make him the SEER in some house...maybe house of LIFE.....but Paran is the one Oponn is afraid of.....what would happen if he decided to alter their card in the deck???

[Ammanas]

Warqueen;297302 said:

Fid has that precog thing going for him...which may make him the SEER in some house...maybe house of LIFE.....but Paran is the one Oponn is afraid of.....what would happen if he decided to alter their card in the deck???

I've got it---just like Paran and QB did with the condor in MOI. Draw Oponn and let Apsalar cut the card in half or, better yet, have the shadow hound inside Paran or one of the physical Hounds slowly chew the card! That'll elicit screams--Oponn will wish they were back inside Obo's fireball. Adios Oponn!

[Tehol Beddict]

I always assumed that they were talking about Corabb... he just seems to be the most likley candidate for Lord of Chance... sure, Fid may be Seer in some House, but he just doesn't seem LUCKY enough. I mean, sure, Fid does have amazing sapping skills, but he's a Bridgeburner AND a Bonehunter... So, if the Bonehunters don't ascend *nudge nudge* *wink wink* he'll become an ascended Bridgeburner (finally). So, he's basically taken in terms as ascendant spots. I doubt SE will overpower Fiddler further... so, I'm gonna guess that if and when Oponn gets offed, Corabb may just ascend :folken:. Cheers:D:p

[Mentalist]

Well, Corabb is "beloved of the Lady", to quote QoD, meaning his luck comes FROM Oponn, not in stite of them...
Besides, he doesn't direct the luck of others, afaik.--Crokus was the same way in GotM, when he first got the coin, untill his luck turned.

[Nequam]

I don't think Corrab will be ascending in any manner.
But I do beleive that the twins conversation was about Paran. Or at least that is what I thought when I first read it.

[Mentalist]

Corabb doesn't need to ascend.
With his luck, he'll be the one who'll end up with Masan Gilani, and the generour retirement payment.

[Lisheo]

Lmao Hopefully Kud Really, Akaronys is right. Paran is the only soldier who usurped their power, and I assumed by holding onto their card and not being dragged out, I assume that he means Fid didnt draw on the full power of Oponn, perhaps playing an inactive version.

[Ammanas]

Lisheo;298917 said:

Lmao Hopefully Kud Really, Akaronys is right. Paran is the only soldier who usurped their power, and I assumed by holding onto their card and not being dragged out, I assume that he means Fid didnt draw on the full power of Oponn, perhaps playing an inactive version.

I disagree. In BH, they're definitely talking about Fiddler usurping their power, at least for that night. His game had just concluded and it concerned the very events Oponn was trying to influence. Fiddler himself said, "Now I know who gets pushed and who gets pulled." T'amber said "Oponn's presence was unexpected." The Lord said, "Do you have any idea how mightily I struggled to retain our card during that horrendous game?" He never claims he succeeded and he obviously didn't as T'amber notes.

Paran had nothing to do with the events in Malaz City. It was Fiddler's game and his song.

[Mentalist]

heh.. I disagree
we never hear fiddler's opinions on ascendants and Mortals, but Paran makes his abundantly clear.
"Never mess with mortals" line is a clear Paran giveaway.
If not, please explain to me what happened to the twins.

[Aptorian]

I don't think you should classify Obo as mortal, and it was ST that made the grumpy old mage aware of the two sitting on his roof.

[Lister of Smeg]

I always assumed they were talking about Fiddler, too. As Ammanas said, Paran had nothing to do with the events of Malaz Island, whereas Fid had just played one of his games. IMO, he's the only logical choice for who the Twins were talking about.

[Wry]

It's plainly Paran.

Fiddler has never had any dealings with Opponn that we know of, never stole their power that we know of, never usurped them at their own game that we know of.

Whereas a large chunk of the first book was about Paran doing those things.