[kage]

ok, everytime i think i understand everything, SE throws a monkey wrench at my finely wrought ideas. I love it, but it's annoying

Ok, Rake has a mortal sword, who is this Clip fella, but only on Bluerose is he worshipped as a god, but does he know that? and what's with his rings, it's annoying. That one threw me for a loop.

and the flesh and blood K'Chain Che'Malle, what's with that, are they supposed to be all dead......[I]sigh[I].....and how does Redmask talk to them?

and what's with Onrack becoming mortal, i thought that when the T'lan turn to dust they travel through Tellan, so whats so different that this time he mortal again?

and one last thing, Hedge, where is he? and what's with the half face T'lan Imass

[Aptorian]

I think you need to reread the book

Rake doesn't care about his worshippers and does not achknowledge his goodhood.

The ring that Clip spins functions both as a garrote and as a portable gate into KG. This is apparently a pretty big thing, why is unknown.

The KCCM were thought dead, and they are extinct on most of Wu. Appparently some KCCM have survived on the Lether wastes in the east. What they are doing there, and what their plan is, is unknown.

We don't understand Redmasks connection with the KCCM and it would seem that Redmask doesn't fully understand it either.

Onrack became mortal because the Refugium is a dream/memory of the Imass past. In there they are flesh and the past lives again.

Hedge joined the Bonehunters and what he'll do from there in unknown.

The T'lan Imass Hedge travels with was one of the Unbound, the T'lan Imass that joined the CG.

[kage]

thanks, and i hadn't finished it yet, so there! *sticks out tonuge*

[Imperium Corruo]

Speaking of which, I was under the impression the god choose his mortal sword, shield anvil, and destriant, So how did Clip get that title? He was appointed by Bluerose priests? It may be a mere designation without any further significance without the power of a god behind it or Rake's acknowledgment... like a teenager claiming to be grown up.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Aptorian;295903 said:

The ring that Clip spins functions both as a garrote and as a portable gate into KG. This is apparently a pretty big thing, why is unknown.

I thought it was because he's the first Andii to be "born to darkness" i.e embraced by MD in thousands of years? That's what he claims anyway, on the walk with Seren, Udinass, Fear, Silchas, et al.

[Aptorian]

As we see, namely in RG, gods have little control over their worshippers actions. They apoint themselves priests and warriors in the name of an ascendant and unless the god eradicates them himself, they draw their own power.

Thelomen Toblerone;295917 said:

I thought it was because he's the first Andii to be "born to darkness" i.e embraced by MD in thousands of years? That's what he claims anyway, on the walk with Seren, Udinass, Fear, Silchas, et al.

Clip is a big fat liar.

[Imperium Corruo]

Aptorian;295920 said:

As we see, namely in RG, gods have little control over their worshippers actions. They apoint themselves priests and warriors in the name of an ascendant and unless the god eradicates them himself, they draw their own power.

Yeah, I do remember some of that in RG. The follower/god relationship in MBotF is very unique. Deserves some more development.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Aptorian;295920 said:

Clip is a big fat liar.

Ah, conclusive proof then.

[Kalahinen]

The Bluerose Andii aren't telling the whole truth there...They possibly wanted to give a wrong impression to Silchas Ruin by twisting the truth if Clip really isn't a Mortal Sword.

[The Dark Wanderer]

kage;295890 said:

and the flesh and blood K'Chain Che'Malle, what's with that, are they supposed to be all dead......[I]sigh[I].....and how does Redmask talk to them?

I had a feeling when re-reading RG that the KCCM somehow tied into the weird cult of the Shake. I cann't place my finger upon it, but there seemed, at the time, to be some links. However, now I come to write it down I cann't remember any of them and so this is probably counts as a CRAZY theory.

[Mentalist]

There IS a link
something along the lines of "the primitive from of KCCM was aparasytic and it came from the sea. some of them would iget into the Shake, causing mutations". The Shake coven is composed of such mutated Shake who also get the talent for sorcery out of it.

[The Dark Wanderer]

thank you, at least now I know I'm not going mad. (although maybe that would help with the flying elephants)

[Thelomen Toblerone]

There's a mention of how the bellies of the matrons were slit open into the sea, but the seed was stubborn and found ways to cling to life. Perhaps the KCCM were wiped out then like people thought, but have now "re-grown" themselves?

[Beld]

Aptorian;295920 said:

As we see, namely in RG, gods have little control over their worshippers actions. They apoint themselves priests and warriors in the name of an ascendant and unless the god eradicates them himself, they draw their own power.

Hmm this discussion is a bit confusing to me. This is how I thought of it... Rake is an ascendant son of Mother Dark. But that doesn't make him a God... his deity is Mother Dark, through granted the *alleged* first children of the universe have a closer relationship with their gods. Clip, I thought of as the Mortal Sword of darkness but independent of Rake (though Rake may have people who worship him and perhaps push him to godhood).

I think in particular of the discussion before Seren and Silchas and Clip and co. make it into the portal about how there must have been some other existence because "nothing preceded darkness." I believe there was implication in that conversation that not only was Darkness not first (a concept of the void perhaps?), but that Mother Dark was the deity involved.

[D'rek]

The Dark Wanderer;296067 said:

I had a feeling when re-reading RG that the KCCM somehow tied into the weird cult of the Shake. I cann't place my finger upon it, but there seemed, at the time, to be some links. However, now I come to write it down I cann't remember any of them and so this is probably counts as a CRAZY theory.

Links:

1) as said, some (if not all) baby KCCM come from the sea, and somehow this has caused mutations in the Shake even to this day. I believe Brullyg was surprised that such a powerful mage like Sinn didn't have any lizard-feet or other mutations.

2) As Deadsmell explains, the KCCM babies that were not claimed by a Matron came from the sea (or perhaps were claimed at the shore by the Matrons, something like that). The Shake are descendants from Tiste Andii who were assigned to guard the shores because of this.

3) When Crump digs a hole near the shore, they find tons of little lizards in the bottom. These may be freakishly-long-living KCCM larvae, or some crazy mutated lizard-fish that resulted from the KCCM, or something completely different.

[Aptorian]

A said:

3) When Crump digs a hole near the shore, they find tons of little lizards in the bottom. These may be freakishly-long-living KCCM larvae, or some crazy mutated lizard-fish that resulted from the KCCM, or something completely different.

I think you're wrong. Small baby skulls at the base of the keeps walls? They are the bodies of children that were born mutated and thrown over the bellfry. Remember the Shake only keep those children that are not too lizard like.

The skeletons are never descibed as being anything but human.

[D'rek]

Never descirbed as human, nor as not-human. I knew you'd contest it, so I threw in the "or something completely different" part. I suppose the way the skulls were described to be stirring always threw me...

[Bauchelain the Evil]

You know I was wondering about Clip how could he be the Mortal Sword of Rake if Rake renounced to his godship?And we must even assume that being Knight of HHD Rake is himself A Mortal Sword: Mortal Sword of Mother Dark.

It isn't so absurd to think that maybe Clip and the Onix Wizards lied. It seems beneath Rake to choose an assassin for Mortal Sword,

[Aptorian]

We've had this discussion before but I don't think Mortal Sword is the same as Champion/Knight. The Knight, which is what Rake is, protects the warren/house/hold. The Mortal Sword serves a religion or a god, as a champion of the cult or leader of the army.

Just because the god doesn't achknowledge the religion or cult, it can still draw strength from a god and appoint Mortal Swords, Destriants and SAs in their name. That is the case of the Cult of The Blackwinged Lord or like for decades there hadn't been a "true" destriant of Feners Grey Swords.

[Seed]

Even looking at the example of Featherwitch and the Errant, or perhaps more relevantly Gruntle as a Mortal Sword, Clip would need some form of formal link to Anomander to kickstart the powerlink. Maybe one of the rings he's swinging around used to belong to Rake, I don't see it likely that Clip has eaten of Rake's flesh and that would more likely make him a priest of sometype anyway looking at what happened to featherwitch when she gobbled down the Errant's eye.

I too also see it likely that the Bluerose Andii have been spreading a bit of misinformation. Then again, Clip doesn't seem quite like he's working with a full deck at times, it's quite possible he thinks he's the mortal sword from what the priests told him and is taking their word for it as it were. He's certainly got a hard on for some form of vengance at their abandonment by Rake whatever the situation turns out to be. The link between worshipper and god and ascendants and stuff is all a bit of a headache at times...more information is required to know more definates.

The very fact that he has an active link to Kurald Galain does imply that he's got some sort of approval from the high ups of Darkness. argh. These books drive me crazy sometimes...