[D'rek]

And Paran's next statement is to suppose that the houses of the Azath and the Deck are both other manifestations of Order.

[Venerus]

Oh yeah... good catch. How did I miss that!?

Quote

Paran felt an intuitive flash. 'The Houses of the Azath. The Deck of Dragons.'
The hooded head shifted slightly and Paran felt cold, unhuman eyes fixing upon him. 'Aye, Ganoes Paran.'
'The Houses take souls…'
'And bind them in place. Beyond the grasp of Chaos.'

Kind of makes Dragnipur a mobile Azath. What doesn't sit well with me is that Shadow seems like the balance between Light and Dark, but if Shadow is a victory for Chaos, that doesn't make sense. I suppose it might help explain why the Edur were so easily subverted by Chaos, and why the Liosan are so gullible/stupid.

[cerveza_fiesta]

I'm with verenus. Thanks for all those quotes. Good discussion.

Man, you miss so much on one-time read throughs. I don't think I ever understood the relationship between light, dark, shadow and chaos until now.

REPPPP! (also rep to Akronys for the other vital quote)

[SiriusL]

Venerus;288017 said:

Unlikely for a few reasons. One, since everything else he says in that scene is accurate, and it's all "passed on by women who remember the truth" -- including the fact that Scabs was the betrayer, and that he is dead.

It does seem more likely that the KCCM ritual pre-dated whatever Draconus did to create Dragnipur. Or, perhaps, that Draconus's hand was forced by that very ritual--he was trying to save MD from the spell. I find it a bit odd that he doesn't mention any of this to K'rul or SoCN when talking about the sword. All he says is that it has a certain "finality" to it, which could be talking about the souls trapped within, or about the fact that it restricts KG's wanderings (thereby imposing order).

Venerus;288017 said:

Two points -- first, Draconus calls Light and Shadow victories of Chaos. For the third time:...

I don't think the text could be much clearer.

No need to get snarky. All I'm saying is that they don't seem like victories, to me. Did Chaos create Light? And isn't Shadow a just side effect of Light?

Venerus;288017 said:

Second: whether we can ascribe volition to Chaos or not, Draconus does and I accept his view, unless there is explicit evidence that I shouldn't.

The point of Drac's quote should be clear -- Chaos hunts Order. One manifestation of Order is pure negation (Darkness) but Drac's second point is that Order needn't only ally itself with Darkness -- Order may also ally itself with Balance. I would consider these elemental forces, the basic forces at play in the SE universe, but that is my speculation and I'm not prepared to back it up w/text.

I would also consider them elemental, if not the primordial forces that existed prior to all else. Again, no text to back that up either.

In the passage just preceding this where Paran sees Chaos approaching, his description of Chaos makes it seem little more than a hungry semi-consciousness, not the type of thing that would deliberately set out to create Light. That's what I mean about it being a side effect type of thing--Chaos is simply trying to create disorder.

Quote

Purity and Order do not have the same meaning -- I don't see what you're getting at.

You're probably reading too much into my statements--they're not argumentative.

Quote

Darkness is not "pure order", as you say. Darkness is one way order can manifest.

Right, but that just begs the question. To me, darkness or negation has nothing to do with order. It's like saying, "the cup is empty, therefore it is cold." The two conditions actually have nothing to do with one another. But then, it's not my book to write.

I do agree that order is branching out, so to speak, and has been since the beginning. That seems like a theme in the books--evolution by increasing order. Magic is just one example: Elemental-->Spirit magic-->Holds-->Warrens. I'm not sure how spirit magic fits in there, to be honest, but it seems a little less structured. We could have whole discussions about how the Malazan Empire fits into this with it's chaos-within-structure mentality, etc.

[Gwynn ap Nudd]

SiriusL;289076 said:

It does seem more likely that the KCCM ritual pre-dated whatever Draconus did to create Dragnipur. Or, perhaps, that Draconus's hand was forced by that very ritual--he was trying to save MD from the spell. I find it a bit odd that he doesn't mention any of this to K'rul or SoCN when talking about the sword. All he says is that it has a certain "finality" to it, which could be talking about the souls trapped within, or about the fact that it restricts KG's wanderings (thereby imposing order).

As Draconus finished making Dragnipur after the prologue in which Kallor curses him, I can't see any way that the KCCM ritual could have been near the same time. It must have happened far ealier (say 50-100 thousand years earlier).

What the "finality" was is completely open to conjecture as he changed the sword so that it lacked said finality due to Kallor's curse (or at least hints he will change it).

[SiriusL]

Gwynn ap Nudd;289287 said:

As Draconus finished making Dragnipur after the prologue in which Kallor curses him, I can't see any way that the KCCM ritual could have been near the same time. It must have happened far ealier (say 50-100 thousand years earlier).

What the "finality" was is completely open to conjecture as he changed the sword so that it lacked said finality due to Kallor's curse (or at least hints he will change it).

When you put it in those terms, it seems obvious that the finality was that no one could ever escape from the sword. Draconus knew he would be trapped inside, so he needed to change it to make sure he could get out one day. So, what did he do to change it?

[Sinisdar Toste]

ensured that one day karsa orlong would be born:D

[Mentalist]

left a way for Paran to get in
hmm there was a crazy theory way, way back, that Dragnipur has its own card in the Deck. I've ridiculed aqnd laughed at it back then, but maybe Draconus DID somehow connect the sword tothe Azath, so that individuals, such as MotD could get in/out of it?

[SiriusL]

kud13;290029 said:

left a way for Paran to get in
hmm there was a crazy theory way, way back, that Dragnipur has its own card in the Deck. I've ridiculed aqnd laughed at it back then, but maybe Draconus DID somehow connect the sword tothe Azath, so that individuals, such as MotD could get in/out of it?

Wouldn't he have gotten himself out, then? Or is it just people who aren't killed by it?