[cerveza_fiesta]

Sorry if I'm dumb, but:

What if any relation is there between KCCM and draconus?

[Abyss]

Afaik, not that we know of.

There's the open questions about the relation between KChain and dragons and it's been said Dracboy is draconic soletaken, tho we've never seen it. Plus the way the three bound Eleient in TB expressed hate for him.

Back at you, why do you ask - is there a reason you think there's a link?


- Abyss, ...hey, it's Six Degrees of K'Chain Che'malle!

[Ahk-Thenrah]

draconus made babies with tiam, think it might have been envy and spite, but i don't know what connection, if any, he has with the KCC, unless he had more babies with her than we know about ie: KCC, highly doubtful though, unless, hmm, unless, he was one of their gods... nah, too loony.

[Abyss]

Nope - Drac made Envy and Spite with Sheltana (Scabby's daughter). And again, afaik, no connection to the KC there.

Tiam may be Drac's sister, depending on just how the Elder Gods are related. And elsethread, someone ref'd a GotM quote where Tiam is ref'd a the 'matron', suggesting a possible (i think unlikely) connection to the KChain Matrons.

Another open question is whether Drac is draconic because he sex'd Tiam or drank her blood, or by other means.

All of which could lead to a bloodline connection between Draconus and the KC, but that seems REALLY tenuous.

- Abyss, notes, in case anyone was wondering, that Tiam is a skanky ho...

[cerveza_fiesta]

Ok, just wondering if there was any established evidence they might be connected. Here's the reasons:

1-The Kccm deathspell (or whatever it's called) that is drawing the entire of Wu toward it's inevitable destruction.

2-Dragnipur, a sword/warren made of Draconus' body in which a wave of chaos and destruction threatens an unguarded entrance to darkness.

These ideas have given rise to the most thought in the malaz series for me. I was just thinking that dragnipur, when the chaos wave catches the wagon, will self destruct in an extremely violent manner which will have far-reaching effects. The feeling of extreme foreboding that permeates every chapter dealing with dragnipur's interior leads me to believe it's destruction is going to be a turning point in the books.

The KCCM deathspell must have targeted something...it just seems a bit obscene that the KCCM would have enough power to target the fabric of the universe itself. They could however implant a fatal flaw in something small that might allow a much greater force to do their work for them.

Hence my speculation about Draconus and the KCCM. I was trying to think of a rational reason that they might have targeted him in the formation of Dragnipur, or tainted Dragnipur somehow at a later date to become the instrument of the universe's ultimate destruction. A la chaos wave catches the cart, invades darkness, from darkness invades all other warrens and causes the collapse of the warrens and the known universe...etc etc.

Maybe a stretch. Like I said, just wondering.

EDIT: I'm sure I put this in the fora before but I couldn't find the thread and I don't think anybody ever answered about a KCCM / draconus link.

[Mentalist]

cerveza_fiesta;286739 said:

2-Dragnipur, a sword/warren made of Draconus' body in which a wave of chaos and destruction threatens an unguarded entrance to darkness.

umm..I may have missed something, but could you elaborate on this? where do we hear thathis own BODY is used?

[cerveza_fiesta]

meh...that's what I thought. Dragnipur is made of draconus. I thought that was in HOC or whatever book dragnipurs' insides were introduced.

Maybe I just read it wrong. I figured it was like how burn's body is wu and k'rul's body is the warrens...

[SiriusL]

I like the idea that they are connected. We know Mother Dark is threatened by the mysterious KCCM dissolution spell. We also know that a gate to Kurald Galain is threatened by the stormy-laughing-psycho-chaos wave "inside" Dragnipur. It would be a little more elegant if they were the same threat, though elegance goes a bit against SE's story conventions as I see them.

My question is about the timing. The KCCM were long gone from the world by the time of the Fall, at which time we know Draconus was not done with his sword. Is it possible that Draconus actually made the sword to contain or place a semblance of order on the KCCM's spell? It was the only counterattack anyone could think of, and even it wasn't sufficient.


Plus, with a name like Draconus, surely he must be something like the father dragon where Tiam is the mother. I mean, c'mon. Draconus? If KCCM are the firstborn of dragons, I think Draconus must be the father. Damn, it all makes so much sense now! The KCCM had an Electra Complex! They used their father's "sword" as a means to kill their mother! Freud is crying right now. So is SE, I imagine. :cool:

[Optimus Prime]

Well KCCM are the first born of Dragons....right? So i guess that could be a connection of Draconus and them, but other than that, none that I know of.

Your theory is interesting, CF.

[Venerus]

cerveza_fiesta;286828 said:

meh...that's what I thought. Dragnipur is made of draconus. I thought that was in HOC or whatever book dragnipurs' insides were introduced.

Maybe I just read it wrong. I figured it was like how burn's body is wu and k'rul's body is the warrens...

I think they first introduce the innards of D-pur in GotM when Paran walks inside of it (earning his new name), right after Rake kills the Hounds, yes? Re-reading the passage, I don't see any evidence of it being made of Draconus' body.

The only reference that Draconus makes to the forging of Dragnipur is in the prologue of MoI when he tells K'rul and Nightchill/SoCN that there is a "finality" to the weapon he's been making, and that he might have to fix that.

If you can find something definitive that suggests it's his body though, that'd be awesome. Worlds of speculation await...

[cerveza_fiesta]

@sirius

That's kinda the way I was thinking, but didn't want to carry it quite so far of course...knowing how people get about crazy theories. Just KCCM = firstborn of dragons and Draconus kinda suggests dragons....just in his name.

I know its an unsupported span over the abyss of crazy theorydom, that's why I asked if there was a positive link between KCCM and Draconus. Since there isn't my span is looking rather shaky.

I like the idea that dragnipur could have been a containment vessel...makes just as much sense as anything else I guess.

EDIT @Verenus

Oh ok...must've crossed a few wires in the memory then. I haven't done any rereads. Anybody else got a view on the draconus / body / dragnipur / KCCM link?

[cerveza_fiesta]

Better question: Does rake know what is inside dragnipur? Does he realize he's inviting disaster by being too merciful with it's use?

[Venerus]

Yes; a re-read of MoI will serve you well with most of these questions. There are a few neat passages with Rake, perhaps most telling of all:

MoI, Envy and Rake:

Quote

'Envy.'
'Very well. Hear me, then, Wielder of Dragnipur. My dear father, Draconus, plots to escape the chains within the sword. How do I know? Blood whispers, Anomander.'
The Lord of Moon's Spawn grunted. 'I am surprised he's taken this long. Well, what of it?'
Envy's eyes went wide. 'Is this bravado madness? In case you've forgotten, we worked damned hard to slay him the first time!'
Picker glanced over at Blend, saw the woman standing slack-jawed as she stared at Rake and Envy.
'I don't recall you doing much,' Anomander Rake was saying, 'at the time. You stood by and watched the battle—'
'Precisely! And what do you think my father thought of that?'
The Lord of Moon's Spawn shrugged. 'He knew enough not to ask for your help, Envy. In any case, I heed your warning, but there is scant little I can do about it, at least until Draconus actually manages to free himself.'
The woman's dark eyes narrowed. 'Tell me, my dear, what—if anything—do you know of the Master of the Deck?'
Rake's brows rose. 'Ganoes Paran? The mortal who walked within Dragnipur? The one who sent the two Hounds of Shadow into Kurlad Galain's gate?'
Envy stamped her foot. 'You are insufferable!'
The Tiste Andü Lord turned away. 'We've spoken enough, Envy.'
'They will seek a way to break the sword!'
'Aye, they might.'
'Your very life totters on the whim of a mortal man!'
Anomander Rake paused, glanced back at her. 'I'd best step careful, then, hadn't I?' A moment later, he continued on, into the loose crowd of Tiste Andü.

He doesn't sound too worried or surprised, does he? And given how much he knows about what goes on in there, it's a safe bet he knows *everything* about Dragnipur.




Here, Draconus speaks at length about Dragnipur, why it was forged, etc. Nothing in there about it being from his own body. Plus, added bonus, looks like he's suggesting the CG may actually have been chosen by Chaos to lead the charge against Darkness. Hmmm.

Quote

With a gasp, Paran found himself stumbling once more alongside Draconus. The residue of what he had witnessed clung to him, making his heart drum savagely in his chest. Another thirty steps passed before he was able to raise his head, to speak. 'Draconus,' he grated, 'you have made a very unpleasant sword.'
'Darkness has ever warred against Chaos, mortal. Ever retreated. And each time that Mother Dark relented—to the Coming of Light, to the Birth of Shadow—her power has diminished, the imbalance growing more profound. Such was the state of the realms around me in those early times. A growing imbalance. Until Chaos approached the very Gate to Kurald Galain itself. A defence needed to be fashioned. Souls were… required
'Wait, please. I need to think—'
'Chaos hungers for the power in those souls—for what Dragnipur has claimed. To feed on such power will make it stronger—tenfold. A hundredfold. Sufficient to breach the Gate. Look to your mortal realm, Ganoes Paran. Devastating, civilization-destroying wars, civil wars, pogroms, wounded and dying gods—you and your kind progress at a perilous pace on the path forged by Chaos. Blinded by rage, lusting for vengeance, those darkest of desires—'
'Wait—'
'Where history means nothing. Lessons are forgotten. Memories—of humanity, of all that is humane—are lost. Without balance, Ganoes Paran—'
'But you want me to shatter Dragnipur!'
'Ah, now I understand your resistance to all that I say. Mortal, I have had time to think. To recognize the grave error I have made. I had believed, Ganoes Paran, in those early times, that only in Darkness could the power that is order be manifested. I sought to help Mother Dark—for it seemed she was incapable of helping herself. She would not answer, she would not even acknowledge her children. She had withdrawn, deep into her own realm, far from all of us, so far that we could not find her.'
'Draconus—'
'Hear me, please. Before the Houses, there were Holds. Before Holds, there was wandering. Your own words, yes? But you were both right and wrong. Not wandering, but migration. A seasonal round—predictable, cyclical. What seemed aimless, random, was in truth fixed, bound to its own laws. A truth—a power—I failed to recognize.'
'So the shattering of Dragnipur will release the Gate once more—to its migration.'
'To what gave it its own strength to resist Chaos, yes. Dragnipur has bound the Gate of Darkness to flight, for eternity—but should the souls chained to it diminish—'
'The flight slows down—'
'Fatally.'
'So, either Rake begins killing—taking souls—or Dragnipur must be destroyed.'
'The former is necessary—to buy us time—until the latter occurs. The sword must be shattered. The purpose of its very existence was misguided. Besides which, there is another truth I have but stumbled on—far too late for it to make any difference. At least to me.'
'And that is?'
'Just as Chaos possesses the capacity to act in its own defence, to indeed alter its own nature to its own advantage in its eternal war, so too can Order. It is not solely bound to Darkness. It understands, if you will, the value of balance.'

Hmmmm. I'm starting to think that the "Order" force that Draconus mentions, especially with the "it understands the value of balance", is reffing the Azath/Tiles/Deck. If Order needn't be solely wed to Darkness, what else could it work with? Azath seems like the "easy" answer. Order through balance/Azath rather than via negation/Darkness

Which is strange, actually, given that Paran was chosen possibly because he's the kind of person who would sanction the CG.

[Pallol One Eye]

Everything Draconus says is plausible, very much so. I am inclined to beleive him, up to a point. The gate is in the wagon, the wagon in the sword.

Yet the cynic in me wonders how much he is dissembling here, just to ensure the sword is broken, he wants to get his a$$ out of there!

Another point here is that the destruction of Dragnipur releases the gate to Kurald Galain to resume its migration, this appears to be a good thing, according to Draconus. However, were does all the chaos, that also seems to be within the sword (chasing the gate) go when Dragnipur is broken. Not such a good thing to have that roaming around, I think.

[Venerus]

I think the answer is pretty obvious -- it (the Chaos) continues chasing KG, but now KG would be free to run away. Or run in circles. Whatever.

As for Draconus lying to get out... Meh. It fits that he'd have made it to protect/help MD and KG, so if he thought the sword was still serving that function, then my guess is he would very definitively not want it broken, not even to free himself.

What's the point of breaking free if he just ends up destroying the universe.

[Pallol One Eye]

Granted, Chaos keeps chasing and the gate to KG can run up and down mountains like the Grand old Duke of York and save MD dark in the process, for a while.

I was thinking in terms of a manifestation of Chaos in the world. The gate has a presence, so presumably must the Chaos. The gate is running, chaos is following, what is left behind after chaos has passed through an area in its pursuit. Or is this happening within the warrens or another realm and there is no real impact until Chaos breaches the gate. This must have been happening before the sword was forged!

[cerveza_fiesta]

thanks for the quotez verenus. Makes more sense now. Dragnipur isnt comprised of draconus bits...he just happens to have been killed by it at some point in the past.

He miscalculated in hiding the gate from chaos within the sword, because chaos found it anyways.

Nothing to do with the deathspell I guess.

[Venerus]

So, Draconus speaks about MD retreating from Chaos, and Light and Shadow being "concessions" of that retreat. Then he also makes comments about the hunt of Chaos after the order within Darkness being eternal slash having existed forever.

There's an accepted theory on the boards that the Chaos within Dragnipur is the result of the matron deathspell. If Fear is right, now that I re-read the quote from MT I think the Matron/Chaos theory very unlikely. Esp: the references to MD consuming Light and Shadow. If the deathspell consigns MD to consume Light and Dark, to consume the victories of Chaos, then it would make very little sense if that same spell were born of Chaos. Here's the quotes:

MT, 140, pb:

Quote

"With this sorcery, they [the KCCM] turned Darkness in upon itself with a hunger none who came too close could defy, an all-devouring hunger that fed first and foremost upon itself." His voice was strangely muted as he spoke. "Kaschan sorcery was sent into the warren of Mother Dark, like a plague. Thus was sealed the gate from Kurald Galain to every other realm. Thus was Mother Dark driven into the very core of the Abyss, witness to an endless swirl of light surrounding her -- all that she would one day devour, until the last speck of matter vanishes into her. Annihilating Mother Dark. Thus the Kaschan, who are long dead, set upon Mother Dark a ritual that will end in her murder. When all Light is gone. When there is naught to case Shadow, and so Shadow too is doomed to die."

They turned her into a black hole. That's purest Dark, right? Best right-sided-heart ever. And compare that to Draconus:

Quote

"Darkness has ever warred against Chaos, mortal. Ever retreated. And each time that Mother Dark relented—to the Coming of Light, to the Birth of Shadow—her power has diminished, the imbalance growing more profound."

It just doesn't add up to me. The Chaos chasing KG must predate the Matron's spell, although it's possible the Matron's spell was before Draconus and he's wrong about Chaos having been at war forever w/Dark. Even so... if Light and Shadow are victories of Chaos, why would Chaos set about destroying those?

[SiriusL]

Venerus;287896 said:

So, Draconus speaks about MD retreating from Chaos, and Light and Shadow being "concessions" of that retreat. Then he also makes comments about the hunt of Chaos after the order within Darkness being eternal slash having existed forever.

There's an accepted theory on the boards that the Chaos within Dragnipur is the result of the matron deathspell. If Fear is right, now that I re-read the quote from MT I think the Matron/Chaos theory very unlikely. Esp: the references to MD consuming Light and Shadow. If the deathspell consigns MD to consume Light and Dark, to consume the victories of Chaos, then it would make very little sense if that same spell were born of Chaos.

They turned her into a black hole. That's purest Dark, right? Best right-sided-heart ever. ...

It just doesn't add up to me. The Chaos chasing KG must predate the Matron's spell, although it's possible the Matron's spell was before Draconus and he's wrong about Chaos having been at war forever w/Dark. Even so... if Light and Shadow are victories of Chaos, why would Chaos set about destroying those?

1) Is it possible that the story Fear tells is actually an inaccurate version of what Draconus did? He didn't precisely turn darkness in upon itself, but he did confine it and seal the gate (I guess? what about Clip?). We know that, if left as it is, Dragnipur will eventually cause the annihilation of MD by chaos, because KG doesn't have enough souls to outrun it.

2) I'm not sure I would call light and shadow victories, but either precursors or side effects. Chaos (if we can ascribe volition to it) wouldn't care what it destroys.

3) I'm interested in the idea that Light is a manifestation of Chaos. It's as if Mother Dark or complete darkness is pure order, which I'm a bit confused about. This would seem to go against the Liosan belief that Light is the essence of purity. I think maybe we're dealing with utter opinion on all these issues.

[Venerus]

SiriusL;287998 said:

1) Is it possible that the story Fear tells is actually an inaccurate version of what Draconus did? He didn't precisely turn darkness in upon itself, but he did confine it and seal the gate (I guess? what about Clip?). We know that, if left as it is, Dragnipur will eventually cause the annihilation of MD by chaos, because KG doesn't have enough souls to outrun it.

Unlikely for a few reasons. One, since everything else he says in that scene is accurate, and it's all "passed on by women who remember the truth" -- including the fact that Scabs was the betrayer, and that he is dead.

And two, the sealing of the gate that Fear chats up sounds like a part of the ritual overall -- ie, turning MD into a one-way-street, a black hole. That would mean the gate is functional, but only one way, and destroys those who go through it. I doubt that Draconus did that, since he laments not being able to find her, and says "She had withdrawn, deep into her own realm, far from all of us, so far that we could not find her." Why would he seal the gate if he was trying to find mommy? In my mind, the much more likely explanation is that the Matrons had already acted, and Drac was trying to protect the (now sealed) gate within Dragnipur -- a very different and reversible kind of seal.

SiriusL;287998 said:

2) I'm not sure I would call light and shadow victories, but either precursors or side effects. Chaos (if we can ascribe volition to it) wouldn't care what it destroys.

Two points -- first, Draconus calls Light and Shadow victories of Chaos. For the third time:

Quote

"Darkness has ever warred against Chaos, mortal. Ever retreated. And each time that Mother Dark relented—to the Coming of Light, to the Birth of Shadow—her power has diminished, the imbalance growing more profound."

Every time Dark relents -- ie, concedes a victory to the other side. Who is the other side? The entity Dark is at war with -- Darkness has ever warred against Chaos. I don't think the text could be much clearer.

Second: whether we can ascribe volition to Chaos or not, Draconus does and I accept his view, unless there is explicit evidence that I shouldn't.

Quote

'Just as Chaos possesses the capacity to act in its own defence, to indeed alter its own nature to its own advantage in its eternal war, so too can Order. It is not solely bound to Darkness. It understands, if you will, the value of balance.'

The point of Drac's quote should be clear -- Chaos hunts Order. One manifestation of Order is pure negation (Darkness) but Drac's second point is that Order needn't only ally itself with Darkness -- Order may also ally itself with Balance. I would consider these elemental forces, the basic forces at play in the SE universe, but that is my speculation and I'm not prepared to back it up w/text.

SiriusL;287998 said:

3) I'm interested in the idea that Light is a manifestation of Chaos. It's as if Mother Dark or complete darkness is pure order, which I'm a bit confused about. This would seem to go against the Liosan belief that Light is the essence of purity. I think maybe we're dealing with utter opinion on all these issues.

Purity and Order do not have the same meaning -- I don't see what you're getting at. Not only that, but the Liosan are horribly misinformed about just about everything. And to top it off, Darkness is not "pure order", as you say. Darkness is one way order can manifest. To wit; see quote below.

As for Order and Darkness, the connection between the two is mentioned in the passage and at other times -- Darkness is the Order of negation, of nothing. Think of the Assail -- their version of Order is manifest as the killing of all parties, the negation of the dispute. But:

Quote

Mortal, I have had time to think. To recognize the grave error I have made. I had believed, Ganoes Paran, in those early times, that only in Darkness could the power that is order be manifested

Drac points out that Order can manifest in other ways (actually he says Order can change its nature voluntarily) such as Balance. That makes me think that the Azath are the new manifestation of Order on Wu. "New" since the time of creation, not "new" in the common sense of the word.