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Can you imagine Karsa enslaving the Deragoth?

#21 User is offline   Dancer+ 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 03:05 PM

Karsa is the ultimate mechanism of will, basically a magically-resistant destroying machine. SE highlighted the importance of will as a tool in an interview, Karsa just seems to be able to take that tool to the next level.
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Posted 14 April 2008 - 04:13 PM

Dancer;288969 said:

Karsa is the ultimate mechanism of will, basically a magically-resistant destroying machine. SE highlighted the importance of will as a tool in an interview, Karsa just seems to be able to take that tool to the next level.


Ahhh, but true as that may be, it doesn't explain the fundamental inconsistency of
Spoiler
. I think people wouldn't mind so much if it was consistent, but sometimes it seems to wax 'n wane.
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#23 User is offline   Dancer+ 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 04:41 PM

@Venerus and others: What inconsistency is present before I mount a case for consistency? I must be missing something, in my own interpretation there is not any particular inconsistency.
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#24 User is offline   Venerus 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 04:46 PM

Thelomen Toblerone;286687 said:

The one thing that prevents it being completely ludicrous is the sense I have that Karsa's set to be revealed as the most powerful warrior on Burn/Wu, and end up pretty much unstoppable. Unfortunately, the fact he then goes
Spoiler
makes that kind of a null point.

Edit: Added spoilers for what happens in tBH, forgot this was the MT forum.


This is pretty much what most of us are thinking, Dancer (er... I think?).

Hell, maybe Karsa is just really good at pwning doggies; there's certainly that theme in HoC.
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#25 User is offline   The Crippled God 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 05:25 PM

If you played Heroes III, you would know that some creatures are stronger against a specific Enemy...may be Karsa is something like That:

Unit name: Karsa
Attack: 100
Defense: Who needs this Crap???
Shots:0
Damage: 200-300
Hit Points: 15000
Speed: 23

Special:
Hates Deragoth; Chains Souls; Kicks Ass
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#26 User is offline   Dancer+ 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 06:25 PM

Wasn't the Demon in the keep a Nah'ruk (Short Tail), and didn't he fight it completely weaponless? This would go some way to explaining things. Additionally, the Deragoth were considered hellish because of their magical properties which Karsa's abilities almost negates so they became warrenless hounds. The Nah'ruk possessed no such disability to its normal fighting abilities.

Firstly, the Demon attacked from behind where it did some of its damage. Plus it's abilities and physique were far from powerless:

BH(P97 Hardback) said:

"Karsa reached up with both hands and they closed about a scaled wrist thicker than his upper arm"
"nimble as a bhok'aral"


I've highlighted the key parts to this section below. It also serves well as a mild, if not slightly inaccurate, description for a KCCM (which some were asking for in another thread). The tail and reptilian evidence suggests a Nah'ruk. The talons and dagger-long fangs show a certain efficiency and this demon is over 12-14 feet tall with wrists bigger than Karsa's arms - a walkover?

BH(P98 Hardback) said:

"Standing beside the pit was a reptilian monstrosity, two-legged, the hanging arms oversized and overlong, talons scraping the pavestones. It was tailed, but that tail was stunted and thick. The broad-snouted jaws were crowded with interlocking rows of dagger-long fangs, above them flaring cheekbones and brow-ridges protecting deep-set eyes that glistened like wet stones on a strand. A serrated crest bisected the flat, elongated skull, pale yellow above the dun green hide. The beast reared half again as tall as the Toblakai."

"Karsa took a deep breath, then drew his sword and flung it aside."


I'd also like to point out that this Nah'ruk was a walking killing machine, it could hurt you with any part of its body - talons, dagger teeth, huge bulk, tail, legs etc. Hounds are far more scarce in their adaptability for destruction. They only used their Molars, incisors, canines and the jaws in general (as quoted from the book) - there is no other reference to any other tactics employed by the Hounds.

Now, I'd like to show more inbalance between the two.

HoC (P962 paperback) said:

"The hounds attacked as he knew they would.
Karsa dropped into a crouch that leaned far to his left, as he brought up the massive stone sword over his head, point sliding left - directly into the path of the hound charging down that side.
Striking it in the chest.
The heavy sturnum cracked but did not shatter, and the rippled blade edge scored a bloody path down along the ribs.
Karsa's crouch then exploded after his weapon, his legs driving his shoulder forward and up to hammer the beast as the level of its collar bones.
Jaws snapped above the back of the Toblakai's neck, then the impact jolted through warrior and hound both.
And the latter's sword-gouged ribs splintered.

As a result:

HoC (P963) said:

"The first hound staggered away a few paces, left foreleg dragging, blood spilling out beneath it."

In addition:

HoC (Pp963-4) said:

"And the warrior pulled his right hand back, closed it into a fist, and drove it down into the animal's throat.
Crushing trachea.
The legs spasmed and went limp.


I'd like to pose three (or four) questions. Firstly, what difference did the sword make? And secondly, would Karsa have been able to punch the Nah'ruk in the throat and break it's trachea? Anyone have any evidence to call my post into disrepute? And if not, are there any more inconsistencies?
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#27 User is offline   Ammanas 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 08:52 PM

Dancer;288969 said:

Karsa is the ultimate mechanism of will, basically a magically-resistant destroying machine. SE highlighted the importance of will as a tool in an interview, Karsa just seems to be able to take that tool to the next level.



He's got the stuff to be a great mage killer. Maybe the Empress should announce Karsa will be the next Adjunct haha. Karsa told Tavore the Malazan were no longer his enemies. This could work.
OH WAIT. I forgot about the "extension of the Empress' will" job requirement. It would take him about five minutes to chop up Laseen/Rel/Dom into a stew to feed to the remaining Claw.
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#28 User is offline   Venerus 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 09:13 PM

To Dancer: That's all well and good

BUT!! BUT BUT BUT!!


The Deragoth protected 7c from the KCCM for generations, no? They were the Holy Protectors or whatever that kept 7c clear! And TWO of the SEVEN that fought off an entire race... I realize power doesn't follow the transitive property in SE's writing but come on:

50,000 KCCM >> 400,000 Edur (or around as powerful)
7 Deragoth >> lots of KCCM
1 Karsa > 2 Deragoth
1 Karsa only a little > than one KCCM (or KCNR, whatevs)


I mean, Malazica has a nice entry on SE's take on all of it (http://encylopaediam...om/Karsa+Orlong), but he's just the writer, so who cares what he has to say. Once it's written it belongs to us! Ok well, yes I'm joking about that last part but still... Dera>KCCM, but KCCM approx = Karsa? Weird.
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#29 User is offline   Dancer+ 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 09:47 PM

You are going to use second hand evidence over first hand evidence? I'm giving you primary observational evidence whereas you are hinting at things which we know very little about.

I'm not quite sure about the whole Deragoth-KCCM-Seven cities thing. Did they fight off invasions of KCCM? Is there a quote available, I'm going to take an Apt view and say, "quote or it didn't happen" :D
I also want to see a quote for the 50,000KCCM-400,000Edur. I'm very skeptical that seven Deragoth could fend off a full invasion of KCCM or even a fair few, the ten-fourteen foot demons with sword arms, swift as lightning. Although their magical prowess would have helped them as protectorates.

Coming back to the first point, first hand evidence will not let us down, I've already explained that the Deragoth had one of their major advantages (their magical properties) negated by Karsa's abilities which would go someway to explain their lack of power in the fight. The observational first hand evidence is the only evidence we can use to fully understand the inconsistencies of Karsa's rampages - there is no other course of action.

I do not care what the Deragoth did 300,000 years ago in the context of this thread - it only matters what threat they posed to Karsa and how he dealt with it and whether it was inconsistent with the Nah'ruk he fought in BH. I don't think it is inconsistent, there were different conditions and I can offer up an explanation for why they went the way they did. Is any of my core analysis flawed? :p
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#30 User is offline   Venerus 

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 11:07 PM

Dancer;289214 said:

You are going to use second hand evidence over first hand evidence? I'm giving you primary observational evidence whereas you are hinting at things which we know very little about.


Maybe. But you're begging the question -- describing the fights demonstrates that Karsa won, and that's about it. That's not exactly evidence for why the fights progressed as they did.

Dancer;289214 said:

I'm not quite sure about the whole Deragoth-KCCM-Seven cities thing. Did they fight off invasions of KCCM? Is there a quote available, I'm going to take an Apt view and say, "quote or it didn't happen" :D
I also want to see a quote for the 50,000KCCM-400,000Edur. I'm very skeptical that seven Deragoth could fend off a full invasion of KCCM or even a fair few, the ten-fourteen foot demons with sword arms, swift as lightning. Although their magical prowess would have helped them as protectorates.


Gah. I knew you'd call me on that... Now to find quotes. From MT prologue:

Quote

Scabandari judged that at least eighteen thousand of his shadow-kin remained...(skip) The day had begun with over two hundred thousand Tiste Edur marching onto the plain. Still... it was enough.
The Edur had clashed with the east flank of the K'Chain Che'Malle army, prefacing their charge with waves of devastating sorcery. The enemy's formations had been assembled to face a frontal assault, and they had proved fatally slow to turn to the threat on their flank. Like a dagger, the Edur legions had driven to the army's heart.
Below, as he drew closer, Scabandari could see, scattered here and there, the midnight banners of the Tiste Andii. A thousand warriors left, perhaps less. Victory was a more dubious claim for these battered allies. They had engaged the K'ell Hunters, the elite bloodkin armies of the three matrons. Four hundred thousand Tiste Andii, against sixty thousand Hunters.


Heh. Scabandari says "less" instead of "fewer." What a silly dragon. Yeah yeah, I thought it was 400k Edur vs 50k KCCM -- whatever, 400k Andii vs 60k K'ell Hunters, close enough IMO.

Anyway, still looking for the quote about the Deragoth defending 7c from the KCCM... might take a while. I'll edit it in in a bit. Here we go, I think this is what I was looking for. From L'oric, from HoC, when he's visiting Raraku's memory:

Quote

And, there was no doubt in his mind, those hounds did not belong here.
Intruders. Strangers to this realm, against which nothing in this world can challenge. They are the dominators...and they know it.
And now he saw that the other observers were tracking the terrible beasts. K'Chain Che'Malle, three of them, the heavy blades at the end of their arms revealing that they were K'ell Hunters, were padding along a parallel course a few hundred paces distant from the hounds. Their heads were turned, fixed on the intruders -- who in turn ignored them.
Not of this world either, if my father's thoughts on the matter are accurate. He was Rake's guest for months in Moon's Spawn, delving its mysteries. But the K'Chain Che'Malle cities lie on distant continents. Perhaps they but recently arrived here, seeking new sites for their colonies... only to find their dominance challenged.
If the hounds saw L'oric, they made no sign of it. Nor did the half-humans.
The High Mage watched them continue on, until the finally dipped into a basin and disappeared from sigh.
The K'ell Hunters all halted, then spread out cautiously and slowly closed to where the hounds had vanished.
A fatal error.
Blurs of darkness, launching up from the basin. The K'ell Hunters, suddenly surrounded, swung their massive swords. Yet, fast as they were, in the span of a single heartbeat two of the three were down, throats and bellies torn open. The third one had leapt high, sailing twenty paces to land in a thumping run.
The hounds did not pursue, gathering to sniff at the K'Chain Che'Malle corpses whilst the half-humans arrived with hoots and barks, a few males clambering onto the dead creatures and jumping up and down, arms waving.
L'oric thought he now understood why the K'Chain Che'Malle had never established colonies on this continent.



Before you say it, yes, it is speculation from L'oric. So what? Nearly everything SE writes is "true" -- that is, characters don't *usually* make wild assertions, most of what characters figure out or synthesize from existing information is true with rare exception. Especially L'oric -- L'oric has yet to be wrong about something he figures out, to the best of my knowledge. The burden is to demonstrate that he is wrong; it's not enough to say "L'oric might be wrong" as a defense. Sorry if you weren't going to say that; just preempting it. The idea that the Deragoth protected 7c from invaders also fits with the "Holy Protectorate" thing that remains on 7c.

I'd also like to note that it's not enough to say this is a secondary source -- everything that's from the text is a primary source, it's all the same writer and same reality. It's not like there's one text where stuff happens, and another text where people write about the stuff that happened. It's all directly from SE's writing, and it doesn't diminish an argument to make inferences about something SE wrote that's not literally events happening. I'll give you a great example: The way the assault on Moon's Spawn goes in GotM is distinct from the way it is presented in MoI. BOTH accounts are primary sources; one is written in narrative voice, and the second "true" one is written as dialogue, but they're still both primary sources. Doesn't make them any more or less fallible -- it's just the way it is.


Dancer;289214 said:

Coming back to the first point, first hand evidence will not let us down, I've already explained that the Deragoth had one of their major advantages (their magical properties) negated by Karsa's abilities which would go someway to explain their lack of power in the fight. The observational first hand evidence is the only evidence we can use to fully understand the inconsistencies of Karsa's rampages - there is no other course of action.


Now I must return the favor -- quote or it didn't happen. Nowhere in those passages does it say that Karsa can negate the Dark that surrounds the Deragoth -- now who's speculating, ehh? :p I think we all agree it might be possible, but there's nothing that specifically supports it.

Dancer;289214 said:

I do not care what the Deragoth did 300,000 years ago in the context of this thread - it only matters what threat they posed to Karsa and how he dealt with it and whether it was inconsistent with the Nah'ruk he fought in BH. I don't think it is inconsistent, there were different conditions and I can offer up an explanation for why they went the way they did. Is any of my core analysis flawed? :p


That's fair, the Deragoth haven't been around for a while, the world's changed. And that certainly could explain an apparent (but perhaps invalid?) inconsistency with Karsa's fights between the Deragoth-of-today and the KCNR -- Deragoth today are just not as badass as they once were. However, it's dangerous to invoke that claim. It suggests you admit there's an apparent inconsistency that needs fixing.

Anyway, ultimately I think it boils down to "gut" and "opinion" because there isn't much in the way of hard facts we can turn to.
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Posted 14 April 2008 - 11:40 PM

I have no quote to back aforementioned point up, I've only read HoC once. I am making an assumption that some reputable poster, perhaps Apt, has lead me on the right trail in the past - not very reliable I know but it's one of those things on the forum we have taken as a given, that is Karsa's negating ability given his personal warren and its effects on the Deragoth. We can deduct that the Deragoth did not have their warrenesque powers as they used nothing but their teeth which can be an equally persuasive line to delve into. I can await someone elses opinion to validate or disprove my claims but at the moment they stand void.

Your new quote actually gives weight to my argument:

Quote

Blurs of darkness, launching up from the basin. The K'ell Hunters, suddenly surrounded, swung their massive swords. Yet, fast as they were, in the span of a single heartbeat two of the three were down, throats and bellies torn open. The third one had leapt high, sailing twenty paces to land in a thumping run.
The hounds did not pursue


We must wonder why they never used the incredible pace they possess or/and disappearing powers against Karsa, was it the loss of the potence of their warrens (through Karsa or the weakening of Darkness)? Plus there were hounds, as in multiple hounds, ambushing. There are many things I'm wanting to mention but I should be sleeping.

Anyway, all of this is leading me away from the point. The major issue is about the consistency rather than how the Deragoth lost all of their veracity.

The first hand evidence allows us to interpret the two battles, and infer whether there is any consistency between the two. Simply Karsa took more damage in the second because he was weaponless and from observation the singular Deragoth was less dangerous, at least in my opinion. My solution is: if Karsa had fought the KNCR with his sword as he had done with the Deragoth he would have sustained fairly minimal damage, that's speculation but Karsa with his sword is a whole lot more dangerous than Karsa without one, we can all agree on this. My responses have justified the reason why Karsa took more damage in the KNCR battle in comparison to the Deragoth battle eradicating the initial point of conflicting evidence.

Interestingly TT brought up the point that the Deragoth had the numbers advantage but never did Karsa engage up close with two of the hounds at once, his first sword blow made the first Deragoth retreat. Then it is just a comparison between the one Deragoth, with Karsa armed, and the KNCR, not armed.
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#32 User is offline   Venerus 

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 12:11 AM

Dancer;289259 said:

I have no quote to back aforementioned point up,


Then, honestly, don't bring it up -- it lends no weight to your argument to cite someone else's speculation. You asked me for textual evidence of my points, I feel I've brought them to bear. Yet you don't feel bound by the same rules? That's a bit of a double-standard, wouldn't you say? So, quote or it didn't happen.


Dancer;289259 said:

Your new quote actually gives weight to my argument:

The Deragoth either used their warrens to transport around the K'ell Hunters
or they used their speed/warren to get there equally as fast.


Ok, you're speculating wildly and you know it. Occam's razor: the Deragoth went into the basin, waited/hid there, then jumped out of the same basin, and they were fast about it. What exactly needs explanation there?

Edit: I see you've changed your post. "Dissapearing powers"?? They're DOGS, hiding in a BASIN. What's supernatural about that, exactly?

Here's the dispute on the table: did the Deragoth use warrens to achieve their ends?
Your reply: They achieved their ends, so they must have used warrens!
That's soooo fallacious. You're beginning with a conclusion and trying to argue backwards. Not sound reasoning.



Dancer;289259 said:

We must wonder why they never used this incredible pace against Karsa


Who says they didn't use that incredible speed!?? Karsa is incredibly fast in his own right, you're comment is just more speculation! It's a classic case of circular reasoning: "they weren't too fast for Karsa, therefore they weren't using their full speed." Do you see how that cuts both ways? It would be a whole lot more parsimonious with the rest of the book if they WERE using their incredible speed and Karsa was just too fast for them. I must say again: Quote or it did not happen.

Dancer;289259 said:

was it the loss of the potence of their warrens (through Karsa or the weakening of Darkness)? Plus there were hounds, as in multiple hounds, ambushing.


Just as there were hounds, as in multiple hounds, coming at Karsa from both sides. 3 K'ell vs 7 hounds, 1 Karsa vs 2 hounds... same odds, roughly.

Dancer;289259 said:

Anyway, all of this is leading me away from the point. The major issue is about the consistency rather than how the Deragoth lost all of their veracity.

The first hand evidence allows us to interpret the two battles, and infer whether there is any consistency between the two. Simply Karsa took more damage in the second because he was weaponless and from observation the singular Deragoth was less dangerous, at least in my opinion. My solution is: if Karsa had fought the KNCR with his sword as he had done with the Deragoth he would have sustained fairly minimal damage, that's speculation but Karsa with his sword is a whole lot more dangerous than Karsa without one, we can all agree on this. My responses have justified the reason why Karsa took more damage in the KNCR battle in comparison to the Deragoth battle eradicating the initial point of conflicting evidence.

Interestingly TT brought up the point that the Deragoth had the numbers advantage but never did Karsa engage up close with two of the hounds at once, his first sword blow made the first Deragoth retreat. Then it is just a comparison between the one Deragoth and the KNCR.


That's evidence both ways -- Karsa made a Deragoth retreat with a single blow. And they both leapt at once -- the start of the battle was 2v1. Then Karsa changed that quite quickly, which is more a statement of the one-sidedness of it all.

But the REAL point is, the Deragoth are bad-effing-ass. I mean, take this, from Kallor in MoI:

Quote

'Fortunate for us all,' muttered Kallor. 'I am not so ignorant of these creatures as the rest of you, barring Korlat. Further, I am feeling unusually… loquacious. Thus. Remnants of the K'Chain Che'Malle civilization can be found on virtually every continent on this world. Indeed, in the place of my old empire, Jacuruku, their strange mechanisms filled pits and holes in the earth—whenever my people had to cut below the surface, they discovered such constructs. More, barrows were found. Scholars conducted careful examination of their contents. Do you wish to hear an account of their conclusions or am I boring you?'
'Go on,' Caladan drawled.
'Very well. Perhaps there is more wisdom present here than I had previously credited. The beasts appear to be reptilian, capable of breeding their own kind to specific talents. Those the Tiste Andii called K'ell Hunters, for example, were born as warriors. Undead versions are in the valley below, yes? They had no hands, but swords in their stead, somehow melded to the very bones of their forearms. The K'Chain Che'Malle were matriarchal, matrilineal. As a population of bees have their queen, so too these beasts. She is the breeder, the mother of every child. And within this Matron resided the sorcerous capacity of her entire family. Power to beggar the gods of today. Power to keep the Elder Gods from coming to this world, and were it not for the self-destruction of the K'Chain Che'Malle, they would rule unchallenged to this day.'


The K'Chain Che'Malle conquered the whole world but 7c, and according to our buddy L'oric, it's because of the Deragoth. But a single KCNR is able to give Karsa a run for his money. That seems strange, at the very least. In need of SOME kind of explanation.

So far, your argument boils down to: "it's my opinion that the sword made a difference" and "the hounds of 300,000 years ago aren't a good benchmark for the hounds of today." Both of those are entirely reasonable points, and maybe they do explain the difference. But the rest of it... is very unsupported.


Now, personally, I'm not a fan of either of your proposed solutions. Both of them imply SE is either a sloppy writer, or not a very good one. He spends all this text setting up the Deragoth to fight Karsa, and then the only reason Karsa wins is because they're old and they suck now? How... unfulfilling. What was the thematic/storyteller's point in all that then? I find it more satisfying to think that SE set up the Deragoth as freight train powerhouses specifically so that he could show us how amazing Karsa is, to get us involved in the fight and excited about it, not so that Karsa could kill some straw-man villains that we shouldn't feel that passionate about.

And if the difference just boils down to the sword... Karsa has the power to slay legendary beasts with the sword, but without it he's not nearly as much of an impressive character? Well then the implication is that SE has written a character who is heavily dependent on a crutch, when it seems pretty obvious that the intent is to write Karsa as a force in and of himself. It doesn't add much to the character, it doesn't flesh him out a whole lot, if his sword is doing 90% of the work for him.

But hey, like I said before, I think it boils down to gut and opinion.
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Posted 15 April 2008 - 12:37 AM

Venerus;289272 said:

Then, honestly, don't bring it up -- it lends no weight to your argument to cite someone else's speculation. You asked me for textual evidence of my points, I feel I've brought them to bear. Yet you don't feel bound by the same rules? That's a bit of a double-standard, wouldn't you say? So, quote or it didn't happen.


Should I start laying down the evidence for Hood=Jaghut and Traveller=Dassem again. In addition my point was conceded as void but none of that matters anyway it's not vital to my arguement, you're not focusing on the essentials and scorning me as if I didn't concede the point which I have.

Venerus;289272 said:

Ok, you're speculating wildly and you know it. Occam's razor: the Deragoth went into the basin, waited/hid there, then jumped out of the same basin, and they were fast about it. What exactly needs explanation there?

Edit: I see you've changed your post. "Dissapearing powers"?? They're DOGS, hiding in a BASIN. What's supernatural about that, exactly?

Here's the dispute on the table: did the Deragoth use warrens to achieve their ends?
Your reply: They achieved their ends, so they must have used warrens!
That's soooo fallacious. You're beginning with a conclusion and trying to argue backwards. Not sound reasoning.


They are the Hounds of Darkness, you wouldn't put it past them to slip into Darkness especially duping the KCCM like that, they are hunters and have a keen sense of smell which I'm not going to hunt for a quote for. You are also suggesting something which is almost unthinkable. This is speculation, but almost everything is speculation in terms of that scene; it's how likely our speculation is to be. I've not assumed they've used their warrens. You've totally missed the multi-faceted aspect of my conclusion, it could be their warrens, it could be their natural speed. And you're attacking my logical reasoning when you yourself are the one misunderstanding the point.

Quote

Just as there were hounds, as in multiple hounds, coming at Karsa from both sides. And who says they didn't use that incredible speed!?? That's more speculation from you! I must say again: Quote or it did not happen.


I do agree with your point about needing to prove they are slower than they used to be. In general your desires are really inflexible. Half of the spirit of SE's work is interpretation and speculation due to patterns and vague hints rather than blunt quoting. I'm not going to quote every and any event to prove things which haven't been stated, I'm disappointed in the way you've labelled well established points speculation. I haven't got time to explain and elaborate on every thread of thought that is stated, it breaks general forum protocol.

Quote

That's evidence both ways -- Karsa made a Deragoth retreat with a single blow. And they both leapt at once -- the start of the battle was 2v1. Then Karsa changed that quite quickly, which is more a statement of the one-sidedness of it all.


Not relevant and already covered, don't bring it up.

Quote

So far, your argument boils down to: "it's my opinion that the sword made a difference" and "the hounds of 300,000 years ago aren't a good benchmark for the hounds of today." Both of those are entirely reasonable points, and maybe they do explain the difference. But the rest of it... is very unsupported.


You've missed many of my previous points, plus you've made no points which indicate inconsistency apart from second hand sources or first hand sources from a long time ago. Provide evidence for inconsistency in Karsa's actions and abilities at the time of the battles (not your perception of what they should do based on people's opinions or outdated evidence) or yield.
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Posted 15 April 2008 - 01:41 AM

Dancer;289282 said:

You've totally missed the multi-faceted aspect of my conclusion, it could be their warrens, it could be their natural speed.


Two-faceted: The Deragoth were fast, or they used warrens, and I responded to both specifically but who cares. Your entire argument is based around the fact that they acted in one way in Raraku's memory, and another way with Karsa. The only way your point has any weight or has any bearing at all on the discussion is if you can make a good or even reasonable assertion that they behaved differently with Karsa without resorting to circular reasoning. This, you have not done -- so far, your "evidence" is that they lost to Karsa.

Dancer;289282 said:

Half of the spirit of SE's work is interpretation and speculation due to patterns and vague hints rather than blunt quoting. I'm not going to quote every and any event to prove things which haven't been stated


That's fair, but fails to motivate any part of the discussion we're having.
-Speculation and interpretation require a basis. Wild speculation is a waste of everyone's time, usually. You're basically suggesting that we have a heated discussion over which tastes better: chocolate or vanilla (problem: the ice cream would melt).
-I'm not asking for specific quotes for every word you've written -- I'm asking for quotes specifically for the central and disputed assertions you've made. That's when people need quotes -- to clear up ambiguities or disagreements.
-Also, it's funny how now "quoting" is "blunt quoting" as if the practice of using the text as a source is to be denigrated. Nice try, though.

Dancer;289282 said:

I'm disappointed in the way you've labelled well established points speculation. I haven't got time to explain and elaborate on every thread of thought that is stated, it breaks general forum protocol.


What a fantastically arrogant and unhelpful thing for you to write. You realize you're a hypocrite, right? To wit:

Dancer;289214 said:

Is there a quote available, I'm going to take an Apt view and say, "quote or it didn't happen" :D


That's you saying that.

Dancer;289282 said:

You've missed many of my previous points, plus you've made no points which indicate inconsistency apart from second hand sources or first hand sources from a long time ago. Provide evidence for inconsistency in Karsa's actions and abilities at the time of the battles (not your perception of what they should do based on people's opinions or outdated evidence) or yield.


I've responded to all the cogent ones, Dancer. Here's how the discussion has gone so far:

Me: I think, based on specific passages, that the Deragoth are far more fierce than the KCCM, and yet, Karsa has difficulty with the KCNR and not as much with the Deragoth.
You: The Deragoth aren't the same as they were 300k years ago, they were different/worse when they fought Karsa, something irrelevant about teeth, and Karsa's sword made a difference
Me: Where is there any suggestion that the Deragoth were different in the Karsa fight? And the "Karsa's sword" thing doesn't sit well with me.
You: I don't have to find support for my theories. They're all over the boards and I don't have to provide quotes. Speculation is fine. And how come you're not using the specific passages I like as evidence, huh? It doesn't count if it doesn't come from those.

Why, oh why, would I need to look at specific passages that you enumerate to demonstrate inconsistency? I can just cite the ones I have, which you still haven't responded to except to say "those are second hand sources!" which is patently absurd; it's all written by SE's hands, it's ALL PRIMARY SOURCE MATERIAL.
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#35 User is offline   Ammanas 

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 01:51 AM

I just read the first page of posts and found myself agreeing with Apt and Dancer--it was ridiculous how easily Karsa killed the Deragoth. My next thought was, SE isn't generally that sloppy a writer so let's examine some Karsa passages from MT:

When he's returning to Shaik's camp, the Liosan glimpse him and they refer to him as "a promise of death." (p684 MT)

When the Deragoth first see Karsa, we get this thought "Hesitate, yes."
Karsa then asks them if they remember the Toblakai? (p716MT)

Then they attack him as "he knew they would." (p 716MT)

So I propose this theory--Karsa has become more powerful since leaving Shaik Reborn and returning--not physically but in terms of his presence. I attribute this to one of two things---either

1) investing his new sword with Delum/Bairoth has given him extra power or

2) He belongs to the CG whether he knows it/agrees to it and is getting power from being Knight of Chains whether we know for a stated fact or not.

Si'balle claims "He issues no commands to his Mortal Sword --his Knight of Chains..for that is what you are." (p626MT)

Karsa replies "I'm not in this House of Chains"

Shrug, this is the theory part--Karsa is the CG's Mortal Sword whether he accepts the fact or not. All other Mortal Swords get power from their gods so why should the CG's be any different?

I'm putting my money on Karsa being the CG's mortal sword. That's how he killed the Deragoth. And remember, he had help with the second one--

p 721MT "Karsa plunged the sword point into the beast's neck."

"A figure darted out from the shadows. The spiked ball at the end of a flail hissed through the air, thundered against the hound's head. A second followed, hammering down to audibly crack the beast's thick skull."
"Karsa stepped forward. An overhead two handed swing finally drove the hound from its wobbling legs. Side by side, Karsa and Leoman closed in to finish it. A dozen blows later and the hound was dead."

"Karsa wiped the gore from his blade and growled, I didn't need your help."

Well, need it or not, he got it. So there we have it.
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#36 User is offline   Venerus 

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 02:16 AM

The question is -- what, if anything, is different about Karsa then and Karsa fighting the KCNR that makes the KCNR fight a real challenge, but the Deragoth fight pretty one-sided? Keeping in mind that all evidence points to the Deragoth being far, far more powerful than the KCCM back-in-the-day.
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#37 User is offline   Ammanas 

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 02:33 AM

Venerus;289299 said:

The question is -- what, if anything, is different about Karsa then and Karsa fighting the KCNR that makes the KCNR fight a real challenge, but the Deragoth fight pretty one-sided? Keeping in mind that all evidence points to the Deragoth being far, far more powerful than the KCCM back-in-the-day.



This quandary reminds me of sports teams. As an example, why does Dallas crush Washington and then get pwned by Phil while Phil gets hammered by Washington.

My post was responding specifically to Apt and Dancer's posts on page one, not the question you're posing. But now I am interested so I'll check it out and likely come up with nothing resembling a credible argument.

Two quick possibilities: The creature he fought wasn't a KCNR. Was that ever explicitly stated and by whom? I don't remember anyone present when he entered the fort that would know a KCNR from a bhederin.

Second, and more likely, the Deragoth haven't evolved and the KCNR have. Humans seem to be suckers for the whole "Back in the day" fallacy. Back in the day I believed in Santa, etc.. The Deragoth are just as scary as ever but parts of the world have raced past them. It's all like K'rul told Raest-"Today, a mortal can kill you."
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#38 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 04:14 AM

You know, Wayne Gretzky missed the net plenty of times, Babe Ruth didn't always hit home runs and sometimes even got 3 strikes. Every person has their good and bad days. Karsa may be badass and all, but falling down a long shaft to wind up in a refuse pit can really have a depressing effect and would throw a lot of people off their game.

Likewise, when you've been spending the night testing out your new badass sword and your enormous horse by killing all those guys you've been waiting to stab for years, it puts you in a good mood and you really get into your A-game. When a couple of smelly creatures that can't decide if their dogs or bears show up, and you think "Gee, those would be fun to have dragging behind my horse", it just keeps the adrenaline-high going and you hit home-run after home-run after home-run, cause you're just having such a damn good day.

Point being, the Karsa-KCNR does not have to match up to the Karsa-Deragoth fight perfectly anyways.

And we reaaaalllly aught to get this thread moved out of the MT forum as we've pretty much given away the entire KCNR scene by now, plus a few other things.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#39 User is offline   Optimus Prime 

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 04:50 AM

Venerus;289299 said:

The question is -- what, if anything, is different about Karsa then and Karsa fighting the KCNR that makes the KCNR fight a real challenge, but the Deragoth fight pretty one-sided? Keeping in mind that all evidence points to the Deragoth being far, far more powerful than the KCCM back-in-the-day.


I'm going to have to side with Dancer. Why does Karsa beat two Deragoth yet struggle with a KCNR? Maybe because the strengths and weaknesses are different for both. Also, have you considered that the Deragoth are used to being unchallenged? Perhaps they underestimated Karsa and that allowed him those first few attacks against them.

The KCNR are stronger than the KCCM. I believe the difference in the two types of K'Chain is that the KCCM have more magical ability while the Nahruk are the ones with the brute strength advantage.

Also, we don't know if the Deragoth are as powerful as they were back all those thousands of years ago.
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#40 User is offline   chill 

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 08:54 AM

@Dancer and Venerus - be so kind as to put your BH and MT quotations inside spoiler tags, or ask the moderators to move this thread to BH forum. Some of us haven't read all of the books yet, and revealing everything that will happen to Karsa afterwards is unfair.
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Captain Zapp: No.
Kif: Well, it's proving somewhat more suicidal than we'd initially hoped.
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