[Kimloc]

When Kalam entered Bidithal's temple in HoC, he said "The Deragoth were looking for a master, in other words, someone meaner and nastier than themselves. And in this camp, they'll find no such person."

But they did find such a person--Karsa. It's too bad he couldn't exert any mastery over them and had to kill them. What would have been UBER-COOL, though, is if he had touched their blood after they were dead and ended up like Paran--having a Deragoth raging inside him.

[Aptorian]

I couldn't believe that Karsa got away from a fight with two Deragoth. It was so ludicrous that I choose to not really think about it.

I wonder if the two deragoths souls were chained to Karsa after he killed them...

EDIT: Briar, there was seven Deragoth. Like seven Hounds of Shadow. It's a pretty big plot point if you haven't figured that out yet. Just wait for Bonehunters... and Toll the Hounds when we get there.

[Dancer+]

I agree with Apt, it was utterly out of place. Two Deragoth, superiors to the Hounds of Shadow, apparently, were defeated by a weaponless Karsa, unbelievable.

[Kimloc]

Dancer;286312 said:

I agree with Apt, it was utterly out of place. Two Deragoth, superiors to the Hounds of Shadow, apparently, were defeated by a weaponless Karsa, unbelievable.

He wasn't weaponless. He had his new sword. But, I do have to agree with you--just ONCE I want to see Karsa limp away from a fight at death's door. Or at least take a couple of days to heal. Someone mentioned in another post this was their only criticism of SE--every character is uber powerful when it's convenient.

[Dancer+]

Really, I have to reread that book (for the first time), I thought he had another KCCM moment against the Deragoth without his weapon. Am I wrong in that respect, I'd be interested to know?

[Kimloc]

Dancer;286329 said:

Really, I have to reread that book (for the first time), I thought he had another KCCM moment against the Deragoth without his weapon. Am I wrong in that respect, I'd be interested to know?

Yup, he cut their heads off. Alright, neither of us had it completely right. The first Deragoth he injured with his sword but finished it off with his bare hands--even more ridiculous than I originally remembered. The second one he cut up pretty bad and Leoman snuck in from the side and walloped it with his mace. Then he and Karsa pwned it.

And best of all--Karsa growled, "I didn't need your help."

[Aptorian]

It's still stupid. One of them had his leg in it's mouth and was shaking and tearing him up.

[Kimloc]

Aptorian;286337 said:

It's still stupid. One of them had his leg in it's mouth and was shaking and tearing him up.

Oh, I think we're way past stupid on this one.

[Dancer+]

I remembered him finishing one Deragoth off with his bare hands, that was the only bit I truly remembered. I do seem to remember the interference of Leoman though. It was disappointing and silly, possibly one of the only true times I've been disappointed by a scene.

[Ammanas]

Dancer;286355 said:

I remembered him finishing one Deragoth off with his bare hands, that was the only bit I truly remembered. I do seem to remember the interference of Leoman though. It was disappointing and silly, possibly one of the only true times I've been disappointed by a scene.

Yeah, the bare hands was a WTF, are you kidding me moment.

[Fiddlers Drum]

james9700;286362 said:

Yeah, the bare hands was a WTF, are you kidding me moment.

the best was Quicks and Kalams reaction to seeing karsa do that

Kalam and Quick Ben slowly rose from behind the wall and stared in silence after the giant warrior.
Shadows had begun swarming in the darkness. They gathered like capemoths to the carcass of the Deragoth, then sped away again as if in terror.
Kalam rolled his shoulders, then, long knives in his hands, he approached the hound.
Quick Ben followed.
They studied the mangled corpse.
'Wizard...'
'Aye'?
'Let's drop off the Napan and get out of here'
'A brilliant plan.'
'I just thought it up'
'I like it very much. Well done, Kalam.'
'Like I've always told you, Quick, I aint just a pretty face.'


its always nice to see Quick and Kalam get spooked

[Thelomen Toblerone]

The one thing that prevents it being completely ludicrous is the sense I have that Karsa's set to be revealed as the most powerful warrior on Burn/Wu, and end up pretty much unstoppable. Unfortunately, the fact he then goes

Spoiler

to Ugarat (is it Ugarat? Cant quite remember) and fights the daemon in the keep, sustaining enormous amounts of damage relative to what 2 deragoth did to him, even thought he deragoth are supposed to be more powerful, and had the numbers advantage,

makes that kind of a null point.

Edit: Added spoilers for what happens in tBH, forgot this was the MT forum.

[Ahk-Thenrah]

in one encounter, he used a sword, in the other, he didn't.

BTW, how do i blank out the content, as i originally posted a spoiler by accident, soz!

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Just type [-spoiler-] before what you want to blank out, and [-/spoiler-] at the end, only without the hyphens.

[Ahk-Thenrah]

Spoiler

thanks

[Thelomen Toblerone]

You

Spoiler

are

welcome.

[Venerus]

One theory I've read that makes the Karsa-Deragoth fight make sense is that he stripped their warrens from them with his blood oil bod, and so they were basically big bad black doggies.

The other possibility (my personal theory, but it's shaky) is that Raraku helped Karsa somehow. Since the Deragoth got their start there/were in Raraku's memory, maybe Raraku withheld their power. Here's what I got, from DHG and HoC:

From DHG, Heb, Leo, Fel and Karsa find their buddies killed by a Soletaken bear, the fur of which he wears from that point on. Karsa:

Quote

"I am Raraku's vengeance against such intruders."

Esp with how much he hates Heboric for "pillaging" Raraku's secrets, and throughout HoC I feel like Karsa is Raraku's self-designated defender.

From HoC:
Karsa to the Deragoth:

Quote

Karsa smiled. You do not belong here. "You would let me pass?" He continued on. And I have had my fill of strangers

Intruders, strangers... close enough. After he's engaged them, on his way to killing the second one:

Quote

Ghosts pivoted, armour shedding red dust, and saluted as Karsa Orlong limped past. At least these ones, he reflected dully, weren't shackled in chains

The pertinence of that last quote, from Quick Ben:

Quote

"Raraku's unleashed her ghosts--"

Quick and Kalam:

Quote

"Did you," he asked Quick Ben, "Have anything to do with the diversion?"
"No. Nor did Hood, although the hoary bastard's arrived. This is all Raraku."

So if Raraku is "waking up" as Kamist Reloe says, then maybe it's giving Karsa a hand -- esp since the ghosts are Raraku's, and they like Karsa. Then again, it could just be that Raraku approves; there's nothing in there that suggests it actually does anything to help out. And of course, Karsa tells Leoman he didn't need help... although maybe the subtext is "because Raraku is already doin' stuff."

It's powder-thin, I know, I know. Just my long-winded two cents.

L'oric:

Quote

"Two Hounds of Darkness arrived a short while ago -- I could sense their presence, though fitfully, but could get no closer. Otataral, and the very darkness that shrouds them."

So Karsa's blood oil did something... maybe? That's more in support of the first theory. Darkness that shrouds them -- if it's protective warren magic, then maybe. Karsa did blow off Binidas' attack, which was either Emurlahn or Chaos or both, so it's... possible he can blow off Darkness.

[D'rek]

Interesting ideas there Venerus. And there's an example in BH where Karsa's blood-oil infusion subdues elder magic, so it could well work on the Deragoth as well, unlike the otataral that we've seen which usually only works on the Paths.

Something I thought of that is irrelevant unless you've read the rest of the books:

Spoiler

The deragoth in HoC have reuinted with their shadow-Hound counterparts, while the seemingly more powerful Deragoth we see later on as well as in L'oric's visit to Osric all have not conjoined with their shadow-Hound counterparts. Could joining their Hound counterparts have made them weaker??!!!!

[Venerus]

Do we know that they're separated from their shadows in the Raraku memory? I honestly can't remember if there's a passage that says when it happened.

Spoiler

One thing that does click though -- since the whirlwind is a fragment of Shadow, and Raraku is "claiming it", maybe Raraku can influence the Shadow part of them. Good call, SkirKaronys

[The Crippled God]

Ok, but The Hounds of Darkness are older than Otataral, so than, i couldn't affect them in any way....may be the desert helped...may be not...but I think, people are underestimating Karsa...maybe he is more than the text shows...we will see