[kage]

so, are the jheck kinda like the t'lan imass, or are they completely unrelated, 'cause it seems kinda like they are, if you ask me.

[Nequam]

I didn't evert think that. The Jheck are soletaken, so that explains their long lives/immortality. But they have all their flesh and what not. Think for themselves...I think. But I guess I see how you might think that.

But if you were to ask me, they are unrelated.

However if I were you I'd wait until someone like Dancer, Apt, Abyss, etc. come and give a super awesome detailed explanation.

[Urb]

I don't have a quote, but if I remember correctly the Jheck are survivors from the ritual that ended the First Empire. So they escaped the T'lan Imass purge, and they are definitely not T'lan Imass.

[Salt-Man Z]

Then again (I think it was it in DG?) someone mentioned that there's a connection between the T'lan Imass and the Soletaken/D'ivers. I don't remember if that relation is ever fully explored (?) but there's some general relationship there; certainly nothing specific to the Jheck, though.

[Dunsparrow]

Salt-Man Z;284550 said:

Then again (I think it was it in DG?) someone mentioned that there's a connection between the T'lan Imass and the Soletaken/D'ivers. I don't remember if that relation is ever fully explored (?) but there's some general relationship there; certainly nothing specific to the Jheck, though.

I think this is what you're thinking of?

Quote

Kulp crouched down beside a figure. 'Soletaken, caught in the act of veering. Into something… reptilian.' 'Soletaken and D'ivers,' the ex-priest said. 'The ritual unleashed powers that ran wild. Like a plague, shapeshifting claimed thousands, unwelcomed, no initiation—many went mad. Death filled the city, every street, every house. Families were torn apart by their own.' He shook himself. 'All within but a handful of hours,' he whispered. Kulp's eyes fixed on another figure, almost lost in the midst of a pile of mineralized corpses. 'Not just Soletaken and D'ivers…' Heboric sighed. 'No.' Felisin approached the subject of the mage's rapt attention. She saw thick, nut-brown limbs—an arm and a leg, still attached to an otherwise dismembered torso. Withered skin wrapped the thick bones. I've seen this before. On the Silanda. T'lan Imass. 'Your immortal custodians,' Kulp said. 'Aye.' 'They took losses here.' 'Oh, that they did,' Heboric said. 'Appalling losses. There is a bond between the T'lan Imass and Soletaken and D'ivers, a mysterious kinship that was unsuspected by the dwellers of this city—though they claimed for themselves the proud title of First Empire. That would have irritated the T'lan Imass—assuming such creatures can feel irritation—to have so boldly assumed a title that rightly belonged to them. Yet what drew them here was the ritual, and the need to set things right.'

[Nequam]

Urb;284513 said:

I don't have a quote, but if I remember correctly the Jheck are survivors from the ritual that ended the First Empire. So they escaped the T'lan Imass purge, and they are definitely not T'lan Imass.

Really? Hmm, I don't remember that. But put that together with the T'lan Imass relationship with Soletaken then I could see Jheck having a tie with the T'lan Imass. But then again, so don't many other modern day races?

Unless you think they still consider themselves Imass, in which case I'd say no.
So there societies have nothing to do with each other.

[D'rek]

The T'lan Imass have a relationship with Soletaken-ness in general, probably somehow because of the Bonecasters.

Specifically, the Jheck used to be part of the First Empire colony that is Lether. The FE Ritual, aside from affecting all the people in 7C, also had some effects in the FE colonies. Those who were affected in Lether were hunted down and the survivors of that purge were chased into the icy wastelands to the north, there to become the Jheck.

[Dunsparrow]

A said:

The T'lan Imass have a relationship with Soletaken-ness in general, probably somehow because of the Bonecasters.

Specifically, the Jheck used to be part of the First Empire colony that is Lether. The FE Ritual, aside from affecting all the people in 7C, also had some effects in the FE colonies. Those who were affected in Lether were hunted down and the survivors of that purge were chased into the icy wastelands to the north, there to become the Jheck.

This quote confirms all that...

Quote

'Do you know how the First Empire collapsed, Brys Beddict? I don't mean the revised versions every child is taught by tutors. I mean the truth. Our ancestors unleashed their own annihilation. Through a ritual run wild, the civilization tore itself apart. Of course, in our version, those who came afterwards to clean up were transformed into the aggressors, the outside agency that wrought such destruction as to obliterate the First Empire. And here is another truth: our colonies here were not immune to the effects of that unfettered ritual. Although we succeeded in driving away the threat, as far as we could, into the ice wastes. Where, we hoped, the bastards would die out. Alas, they didn't. And now, Brys Beddict, they're coming back.'
'Who? The Tiste Edur? We share nothing with them, Turudal—'
'Not the Tiste Edur, although much of their history – that of their path of sorcery in particular – is bound with the succession of disasters that befell the First Empire. No, Finadd, I am speaking of their allies, the savages from the ice wastes, the Jheck.'

However, I'm not sure about them becoming the Jheck after the ritual. I always thought that was the case since they're all Soletaken, but this quote I just found leads me to believe that the Jheck existed as a distinct race before the ritual:

Quote

There were dark times for the Letherii, so long ago now. The First Empire, from which vast fleets had sailed forth to map the world. The coasts of all six continents had been charted, eight hundred and eleven islands scattered in the vast oceans, ruins and riches discovered, ancient sorceries and fierce, ignorant tribes encountered. Other peoples, not human, all of whom bled easily enough. Barghast, Trell, Tartheno, Fenn, Mare, Jhag, Krinn, Jheck… Colonies had been established on foreign coasts. Wars and conquests, always conquests. Until… all was brought down, all was destroyed. The First Empire collapsed in upon itself Beasts rose in the midst of its cities, a nightmare burgeoning like Plague.
The Emperor who was One was now Seven, and the Seven were scattered, lost in madness. The great cities burned. And people died in the millions.
The nightmare had a name, and that name was T'lan Imass.
Two words, inspiring hatred and terror. But beyond those two words, there was nothing. All memory of who or what the T'lan Imass had been was lost in the chaos that followed.
Few Letherii remained who were aware of even that much. True, they knew the name 'First Empire'. And they knew of the fall of that glorious civilization of so long ago, a civilization that was their legacy. And little else, barring the prophecy of rebirth.

Seems weird to me that there would be no non-Soletaken Jheck left anywhere, unless they became a different race? :S

[D'rek]

well perhaps they were a distinct culture living on the Lether continent, just like the Tarthenal. When the ritual occured, perhaps the Letheri used the Cedance or some such to try and defend themselves from the ritual and it was deflected a short distance into the midst of the Jheck. Or perhaps whatever form of magic the Jheck formerly employed made them vulenerable to the Ritual's effects. In any case, I think the Jheck were just another culture and it was the Ritual that made them all into Soletaken-wolves.

On a similar note, did anyone get the feeling that the Pack were Trolhbaral from their descriptions? Iron Bars specifically calls them 'lizard cats' among other things.

[Urb]

Oooh... Now that is a juicy theory

Nice quotes there Dunsparrow.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

A said:

On a similar note, did anyone get the feeling that the Pack were Trolhbaral from their descriptions? Iron Bars specifically calls them 'lizard cats' among other things.

You know I was having exactly the same feeling even tough I wonder why the Jeck would worship a Trolhbaral.
Returning to the thread subject I think that T'lann Imass and Jeck or completly unrelated. In fact I remember a conversation betwen Bugg and the Errant in wich they were discussing the problem of the return of the T' lann Imass if the Jeck arrived in Lether to worsip once again the Pack.

______________________________

Quote

You can't be serious!
Death is always serious.

Paran and Hood

Quote

This rain will make the sea rise, yes?

Mallick Rel to Pearl

[Dunsparrow]

BauchelaintheEvil;285068 said:

You know I was having exactly the same feeling even tough I wonder why the Jeck would worship a Trolhbaral.
Returning to the thread subject I think that T'lann Imass and Jeck or completly unrelated. In fact I remember a conversation betwen Bugg and the Errant in wich they were discussing the problem of the return of the T' lann Imass if the Jeck arrived in Lether to worsip once again the Pack.

Not sure about a convo with the Errant (although I'm sure you're right) but these are Bugg's initial thoughts on the matter:

Quote

So. T'lan Imass, the Pack, and the coming of the Jheck. Soletaken worshippers of their ancient lord, and, from the potential resurrection of that ancient cult, a possible return of the T'lan Imass, to expunge the madness.

There are certainly some mysterious details in all this...

[D'rek]

Right, well the T'lan Imass showed up to slaughter the First Empire when the Ritual occured.
So I'd say:
a) They didn't bother showing up in Lether because the effects of the ritual weren't serious enough
They didn't know about the ritual affecting Letheri
c) They did show up in Lether and no history of it remains.

I believe Bugg is saying that the coming of the Jheck and finding their god could bring the T'lan Imass to Lether to finish what they started long ago.

[Kurt Montandon]

The Errant speaking to Brys:

"

Quote

'Not the Tiste Edur, although much of their history – that of their path of sorcery in particular – is bound with the succession of disasters that befell the First Empire.

"


Now that is particularly interesting, as it gives us one more clue that the shattering of KE - or at least one part of the ongoing process - is related to the First Empire. Along with Trake's POV in MoI, of course; where he thinks to himself "Gods, we tore a warren to pieces on that distant continent." - him being on Genabackis, so the continent no doubt being Seven Cities.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

A said:

The T'lan Imass have a relationship with Soletaken-ness in general, probably somehow because of the Bonecasters.

Specifically, the Jheck used to be part of the First Empire colony that is Lether. The FE Ritual, aside from affecting all the people in 7C, also had some effects in the FE colonies. Those who were affected in Lether were hunted down and the survivors of that purge were chased into the icy wastelands to the north, there to become the Jheck.

Lesson of the week- rituals are bad news... The T'lan imass will tell you that.

What happened to the Jheck, actually? B'nagga was killed, but what about the rest of them? Unless the Jheck population WERE The Pack.

@kmmontadon


Oooohhh.... the plot thickens. Gimme more, dude, this is awsim.

[D'rek]

I believe the surviving Jheck went back to the ice wastes after the city had fallen. Can't remember for sure, but I think it was just a casual mention somewhere in RG...

[Abyss]

Most of the really relevant points i can think of are raised above, but i wil add that in one of the Bauchelain & KB books there's a throwaway ref to a seagoing tribe called the Jheck.

Plus there's the mask thing they seem to share with the Seguleh as food for thought.

- Abyss, so basically, confused as jheck....

[Nequam]

Haha.
Man, I need to read to those K&B books...and Night of Knives for that matter.
I'm still going to think of Jheck as a speperate race entirely. Sure, maybe they could have descended from the Imass but who hasn't?

[VampireGoat]

Personally I see the Jheck as being a driven out part of the First Empire. Not only do we get someone saying that, but they also bear the mark of the Ritual and worship one of dissembelakis' Trolhbaral elder god-wannabes(there is no way The Pack isn't a Trolhbaral since it his an identical description to the guy in BH, name escapes me atm).

There is enough evidence to support them being part of the empire, but only slight bits that suggest them as another race/people which existed prior to First Empire.

Seem's to me the only reason those suggestions exist is because Letherii histroy was rewrote to remove the Jheck from it's personal histroy. They can change the books but making all of the Jheck dissappear is a lot more difficult, so in the rewrite the Jheck became a bunch of savage wolf-men who were on there before the coming of the first empire

[D'rek]

what seems so weird to me is that the Pack seem to be D'ivers T'rohlbarahl, and yet T'rohlbarahl were not naturally D'ivers, they are said by Dejim Nebrahl to be individuals and the one we see in tBH is a special case of several T'rohlbarahl merging their souls to create a d'ivers. For the Pack to be the same thing again seems unlikely and not very original. I won't say more cause this is the MT forum.