[Skywalker]

Just got to the point where K'rul and Skillen Droe meet the Jheleck...

So this is Fanderay and Togg's origin then? An Azathanai permanently veered into two wolves, disavowing all ties to their kind, whose love for him/ herself turns into the eternal love between the two wolves?

Or am I crazy and reading too much into it?

Pretty cool origin tale, if it is

[Coltaine -]

I totally missed that

I think you are right with this.

And it would also explain why there are no Jheleck, only Jheck, in the other books. They joined Farander Tarag/Togg and Fanderay in embracing the wild and were benighted in Skillen's words = lost their human intellect and shapeshifter abilites, like Treach, and became animals, the Ay.

Holy Shit

[Kellanved's shadow]

If Togg and Fandarae are the D'ivers form of Farander Tarag then doesn't that mean that Fandarae can come back if Togg consumes enough blood. All Togg would have to do is split his soul again and what do you know two god's of war again.

[worry]

Dang, man! Are all the folks in your life so easily swapped out?!

[Kellanved's shadow]

If they were all extensions of myself then, yes, yes they are.

[Coltaine -]

Kellanved, on 20 June 2016 - 06:59 AM, said:

If Togg and Fandarae are the D'ivers form of Farander Tarag then doesn't that mean that Fandarae can come back if Togg consumes enough blood. All Togg would have to do is split his soul again and what do you know two god's of war again.

Maybe the split was permanent because they lost their ability to transform back into their Azathanai body?
And I don't think that they were connected like other D'ivers. In the case of Caplo Drem he could split his personality between his different bodies, but always somehow had the overview. He could also focus on one body and let the others do on autopilot. He never really split his consciousness completely. But Togg and Fanderay lost connection for a hundred thousand years. If they were not split before they were separated, afterwards they were for sure i think. Or they were from the beginning something like Ryllandaras and more Ryllandaras.

[Abyss]

Ch 21, Listar and the dogrunner witches mention the presence of Ay, so it appears theyre already , or still, around.

i love the notion of Farander Tarag as the Azathanai form pre Togg and Fanderay... Theres an obvious easier explanation that the Imass just named their own gods after a remembered earlier god but SE being SE the more elegant and complicated explanation is the more likely.

The Jheck and Jheleckan are interesting... by the time we met them in the MBF, the white wolf soletaken Jheck are isolated and worshipping a lizard cat divers, and the black wolf Jheleckan are gone except for possibly the Hounds of Shadow.

[worry]

Yah...it seems a few of the intelligent species alive at this time are fated -- at least as I infer it -- to go extinct, which is a neat choice and one I didn't expect. Not that I expected much of any of those big shocks FoD delivered, but it adds one more layer to the elegiac tone of the story.

[Coltaine -]

Abyss, on 02 July 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

Ch 21, Listar and the dogrunner witches mention the presence of Ay, so it appears theyre already , or still, around.

Okay, that kills my theory. But would have been cool

[Kellanved's shadow]

- Coltaine -, on 18 July 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

Abyss, on 02 July 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

Ch 21, Listar and the dogrunner witches mention the presence of Ay, so it appears theyre already , or still, around.

Okay, that kills my theory. But would have been cool

You could still be right. We don't know how long ago the Jheleckan underwent the ritual of Soltaken. It might have been thousands of years ago and the Imass only got the names "Dog Runners" quite recently.

[Kruppe'sStainedClothing]

i agree it seems like he split into two - a male and female

[waylander001]

Theres a line somewhere In Memories of Ice which says the reason Fanderay and Togg got permanently and completely riven apart was the chaining of the Crippled God. I think it suggets it happened when he was first pulled down out of his realm.

Im also starting to wonder if his being pulled down is going to coincide with the creation of Wu as we know it - when the unformed realms we see in these books kind of end. I wonder was it his chaining to Burn which put an actual solid structure to things.

[waylander001]

Its actually in House of Chains when L'Oric is informing the Whirlwinds council of events from Genebackis. Page 366 Bantam Paperback.
QUOTE-FU:
"The pantheon was shaken yet again - by the sudden taking of the Beast Throne by Togg and Fanderay, the mated Elder Wolves that had seemed eternally cursed to never find each other - riven apart as they were by the Fall of the Crippled God."

[Kellanved's shadow]

Kanyemander West, on 02 July 2016 - 06:56 PM, said:

Yah...it seems a few of the intelligent species alive at this time are fated -- at least as I infer it -- to go extinct, which is a neat choice and one I didn't expect. Not that I expected much of any of those big shocks FoD delivered, but it adds one more layer to the elegiac tone of the story.

pretty much. In tMBotF there is only a few hundred if that Jaghut left scattered throughout the realms (even possibly realms we haven't seen), Almost all the Forkrul Assail (pure and watered alike) from the wretched shore were killed after the events in CG. Reverence thinks there are a few pure's left scattered throughout the realms. There is one nest of K'chain Che'Malle left in the world with the exception of that one other matron at the end of DoD however, considering that it seems like K'Chain Che'Malle Matrons become less fertile with every generation there shouldn't be many more of them in the years to come. The Imass are all but extinct but for a handful left with Onus T'oolan living in Lethares. There are small isolated pacts of white Jehek around but the more the humans expand there territories the less of them there will be and the black Jehelkan are extinct. The Thel Akai are extinct. The Toblakai (Fenn/Tarthenal/Thelomen) have interbred with the humans so much that they will most likely go extinct within a few more generations. The Trell will die out due to loss of habitat. The Edur only live in one forests now after RG. The Andii are about to comit genocide to the Liosan so none of them left. There is only about a thousand Shake left and they have interbred so much with the humans that it would be difficult to even consider them still part of the Tiste race.

The only Ancient race that looks like it will recover and live on is The Tiste Andii. Don't know were the stormriders fit into all this though.

[Planck]

Kellanved, on 07 August 2016 - 01:48 AM, said:

Kanyemander West, on 02 July 2016 - 06:56 PM, said:

Yah...it seems a few of the intelligent species alive at this time are fated -- at least as I infer it -- to go extinct, which is a neat choice and one I didn't expect. Not that I expected much of any of those big shocks FoD delivered, but it adds one more layer to the elegiac tone of the story.

pretty much. In tMBotF there is only a few hundred if that Jaghut left scattered throughout the realms (even possibly realms we haven't seen), Almost all the Forkrul Assail (pure and watered alike) from the wretched shore were killed after the events in CG. Reverence thinks there are a few pure's left scattered throughout the realms. There is one nest of K'chain Che'Malle left in the world with the exception of that one other matron at the end of DoD however, considering that it seems like K'Chain Che'Malle Matrons become less fertile with every generation there shouldn't be many more of them in the years to come. The Imass are all but extinct but for a handful left with Onus T'oolan living in Lethares. There are small isolated pacts of white Jehek around but the more the humans expand there territories the less of them there will be and the black Jehelkan are extinct. The Thel Akai are extinct. The Toblakai (Fenn/Tarthenal/Thelomen) have interbred with the humans so much that they will most likely go extinct within a few more generations. The Trell will die out due to loss of habitat. The Edur only live in one forests now after RG. The Andii are about to comit genocide to the Liosan so none of them left. There is only about a thousand Shake left and they have interbred so much with the humans that it would be difficult to even consider them still part of the Tiste race.

The only Ancient race that looks like it will recover and live on is The Tiste Andii. Don't know were the stormriders fit into all this though.

I don't know if you have but ICE's Malazan Empire sheds some light on a few of the races.

[Kruppe'sStainedClothing]

waylander001, on 06 August 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

Theres a line somewhere In Memories of Ice which says the reason Fanderay and Togg got permanently and completely riven apart was the chaining of the Crippled God. I think it suggets it happened when he was first pulled down out of his realm.

Im also starting to wonder if his being pulled down is going to coincide with the creation of Wu as we know it - when the unformed realms we see in these books kind of end. I wonder was it his chaining to Burn which put an actual solid structure to things.

waylander001, on 06 August 2016 - 08:07 PM, said:

Its actually in House of Chains when L'Oric is informing the Whirlwinds council of events from Genebackis. Page 366 Bantam Paperback.
QUOTE-FU:
"The pantheon was shaken yet again - by the sudden taking of the Beast Throne by Togg and Fanderay, the mated Elder Wolves that had seemed eternally cursed to never find each other - riven apart as they were by the Fall of the Crippled God."

i might be misunderstanding your point, but in Fall of Light it almost seems like Farander Tarag became a divers and split into a male and female. Fanderay and Togg. This is before they bring down the cripple god splitting the continent and seperating the two parts of himself across continents.

Theres the quote about him being so in love with himself that no wonder he'd split into a seperate being just so he can love himself more. All the jheck with them it seems are more animal than man at this point as well. its one of the K'rul and silken roe chapters