[Egwene]

1) Can anyone shed light on the validity of Reachers Ocean being called The Reach? The original entry said that "'The Reach' was also the name of a vast southern ocean, east of the White Spires Ocean / Explorer's Sea." I can't find the alternative name on the maps.

http://malazan.wikia.../Talk:The_Reach

2) Any thoughts on the mystery of the soldier named 'Bowl'?

http://malazan.wikia.com/wiki/Bowl

The original Wiki entry stated that he died during the invasion of Lether, however a soldier by that name died during the siege of Y'Ghatan.

3) Question about Temul: I edited the page to reflect info from Dramatis Personae in House of Chains which makes Temul a member of the Crow clan. The original entry said that Temul was of the Foolish dog clan. Is the latter totally incorrect?

http://malazan.wikia.com/wiki/Temul

Thanks in advance for taking a look

[Puck]

Egwene, on 19 February 2015 - 01:00 PM, said:

3) Question about Temul: I edited the page to reflect info from Dramatis Personae in House of Chains which makes Temul a member of the Crow clan. The original entry said that Temul was of the Foolish dog clan. Is the latter totally incorrect?

http://malazan.wikia.com/wiki/Temul

Not totally, though in DG it's kinda-sorta implied. Around page 546/547 in the MMPB of DG (mine, anyway) Duiker watches the Foolish Dog clan get ready for a mounted cavalry attack, and Temul is among those getting ready. It could just be that most of those taking part are Foolish Dog, but not all; it's not specified either way. And in HoC Temul claims he's from the Crow Clan. And on page 506 of HoC (MMPB) he says he was around to hear Coltaine and Bult talk about Duiker. Logic says with Coltaine and Bult being from the Crow Clan, most of those hanging out close enough to overhear them talk would be as well, but meh, that's just shooting into the blue. Could be just SE forgetting Temul was supposed to be Foolish Dog. Anyway, that what I can point out. No idea about the other two things.

[Gnaw]

Egwene, on 19 February 2015 - 01:00 PM, said:

2) Any thoughts on the mystery of the soldier named 'Bowl'?

http://malazan.wikia.com/wiki/Bowl

The original Wiki entry stated that he died during the invasion of Lether, however a soldier by that name died during the siege of Y'Ghatan.

Could be both. Either two or one who had Hood's favour.

[Egwene]

Puck, on 19 February 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

Egwene, on 19 February 2015 - 01:00 PM, said:

3) Question about Temul: I edited the page to reflect info from Dramatis Personae in House of Chains which makes Temul a member of the Crow clan. The original entry said that Temul was of the Foolish dog clan. Is the latter totally incorrect?

http://malazan.wikia.com/wiki/Temul

Not totally, though in DG it's kinda-sorta implied. Around page 546/547 in the MMPB of DG (mine, anyway) Duiker watches the Foolish Dog clan get ready for a mounted cavalry attack, and Temul is among those getting ready. It could just be that most of those taking part are Foolish Dog, but not all; it's not specified either way. And in HoC Temul claims he's from the Crow Clan. And on page 506 of HoC (MMPB) he says he was around to hear Coltaine and Bult talk about Duiker. Logic says with Coltaine and Bult being from the Crow Clan, most of those hanging out close enough to overhear them talk would be as well, but meh, that's just shooting into the blue. Could be just SE forgetting Temul was supposed to be Foolish Dog. Anyway, that what I can point out. No idea about the other two things.

Thanks for providing the references. I have changed the entry to allow for either possibility.

[Gorefest]

There seems to be a fair bit of speculation going on in some of the current wiki entries, which I'm not sure is suited for inclusion in the descriptive area.

For instance, on the Forkrul Assail page, it says in the 'history' section (which one would assume to be fairly spoiler-free), that the Rent at Morn was potentially caused by the K'Chain Matron destroying the Forkrul god. However, the only actual origin suggestion for the Rent in the entire series, as far as I know, comes from Kallor, who claimed that it happened during the Che'Malle vs Nah'ruk war. This would be supported by the K'Chain artifacts and ruins found in the vicinity. The Glass Desert however, which is supposedly the site where the Forkrul god was destroyed, is on an entirely different continent even. The only support for this idea that I have seen given was that, during the K'Chain vs Forkrul war, a gate to Chaos was opened. But gates get opened and closed all the time, why would this particular gate be the same one as exists as a wound thousands of miles away from where the actual incident happened?

If you are going to speculate like that, in my view one should at least tuck it away towards the end of the entry under the header of 'speculation' or something, not as an integral part of the Forkrul Assail history paragraph as I personally don't even see how it is relevant to that history.

[Egwene]

Gorefest, on 11 March 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

There seems to be a fair bit of speculation going on in some of the current wiki entries, which I'm not sure is suited for inclusion in the descriptive area.

For instance, on the Forkrul Assail page, it says in the 'history' section (which one would assume to be fairly spoiler-free), that the Rent at Morn was potentially caused by the K'Chain Matron destroying the Forkrul god. However, the only actual origin suggestion for the Rent in the entire series, as far as I know, comes from Kallor, who claimed that it happened during the Che'Malle vs Nah'ruk war. This would be supported by the K'Chain artifacts and ruins found in the vicinity. The Glass Desert however, which is supposedly the site where the Forkrul god was destroyed, is on an entirely different continent even. The only support for this idea that I have seen given was that, during the K'Chain vs Forkrul war, a gate to Chaos was opened. But gates get opened and closed all the time, why would this particular gate be the same one as exists as a wound thousands of miles away from where the actual incident happened?

If you are going to speculate like that, in my view one should at least tuck it away towards the end of the entry under the header of 'speculation' or something, not as an integral part of the Forkrul Assail history paragraph as I personally don't even see how it is relevant to that history.

There really is no part of the wiki that is definitely spoiler free, Gorefest. In fact, history sections at the beginning of a page are the most likely places to find spoilers.

The most important thing about any speculation is that it is clearly marked as such, regardless of whereabouts on the page it is. Real trouble starts when a speculation is added as fact...

I had a look at the section you mentioned and have relocated that one sentence to a new speculations section at the bottom.

On the point of that speculation... the rent was occupied by a matron before the Jaghut were thrown into it... I do seem to recall that there was a fairly direct reference to her being that last matron. If anyone could dig out the relevant sections, it would be great to clarify that point.

If you see other speculations or anything which you feel needs looking into... it would be fantastic if you could post it on the Wiki board where I have created a thread for that purpose.

[D'rek]

Yeah, I think someone does at some point call her the last K'Chain Matron.

Spoiler

Of course, they are wrong, since Gunth Mach outlives the Morn matron.

[Puck]

Actually, here you go, discuss away:

Quote

[Kalyth] 'But, Faint of the Trygalle Trade Guild, the Forkrul Assail are in no position to judge. I have tasted the ancient flavours of the K'Chain Che'Malle, and it is as if that history was now my own. The Age of Justice – and the time of the Forkrul Assail – ended not at the hand of enemies, or foreign races, but at the hands of the Forkrul Assail themselves.'
'How?'
'They judged their own god, and found him wanting. And for his imperfections, they finally killed him.'
[…]
Kalyth continued, 'There was war. Between the K'Chain Che'Malle and the Assail. The causes were mundane – the hunger for land, mostly. The Forkrul Assail had begun wars of extermination against many other races, but none had the strength and will to oppose them as did the K'Chain Che'Malle. When the war began to turn against the Assail, they turned on their own god, and in the need for yet more power they wounded him. But wounding proved not enough. They took more and more from him.
'The K'Chain Che'Malle nests began to fall one by one, until the last surviving Matron, in her desperation, opened a portal to the heart of chaos and set her back against it, hiding its presence from the advancing Assail. And when at last she stood facing them, when the tortured god's power rushed to annihilate her and all her kind, she surrendered her life, and the gate, which she had sealed with her own body, her own life force, opened. To devour the Assail god's soul.
'He was too wounded to resist. What remained of him, in this realm, was shattered, mindless and lost.' […] 'You have seen the Glass Desert. That is where all that remains of that god now lives. If one could call it a life.'
'What happened to the Assail, Kalyth?'
The woman shrugged. 'Their power spent, they were broken. Though they blamed the Matron for the loss of their god, it was by their judgement that he was wielded as would one wield a weapon, a thing to be used, a thing not worthy of anything else. In any case, they had not the strength to exterminate the K'Chain Che'Malle. But the truth was the war had destroyed both races, and when other races appeared through the cracks of chaos – which could now reach this and every realm – neither could stop the invasions. More wars, defeats, betrayals, until the age itself crumbled and was no more.'
[tCG, HC, p. 536]

If not for Morn and the Glass Desert being on entirely different continents and Morn not being mentioned in that explanation at all, I'd agree with the speculation. As it is, I'm not sure what I think and have little time to go digging for more. However, there's this bit here from MoI:

Quote

Kallor’s smile was wintry. ‘She sought to harness the power of a gate itself, but not simply a common warren’s gate. Oh no, she elected to open the portal that led to the Realm of Chaos. Such hubris, to think she could control – could assert order – upon such a thing.’ He paused, as if reconsidering his own words, then laughed. ‘Oh, a bitter lesson or two in that tale, don’t you think?'

No mentioned of Forkrul Assail at all in MoI, except one flimsy mention of them being among the founding races. Just ran a word search for it over MoI. But both instances mention a gate opened by a Matron into chaos. And as D'rek says, both are wrong regarding it having been the last Matron. Discuss. I'm off to bed.

Edit: Could be, maybe, that there were two instances of this happening, considering Kalyth says 'she surrendered her life, and the gate, which she had sealed with her own body, her own life force, opened', which could be interpreted as 'she died'. This then allowed 'other races' to 'appeared through the cracks of chaos – which could now reach this and every realm – [...]'. We know from Scabby in the prologue of MT this:

Quote

'The K’Chain Che’Malle are all but gone – we know this. We have seen the many other dead cities. Now, only Morn remains, and that on a distant continent – where the Short-Tails even now break their chains in bloody rebellion. [...]'

..which may or may not be an indication that the thing in the Glass Desert happened before the thing at Morn, seeing as the 'K’Chain Che’Malle are all but gone' already by the time Scabbs, Silchas & friends arrive.

Also, also, the Matron at Morn seems to have been the last one in that area and alone, so the question is how the memory got preserved in that case? Kallor seems to be running on rumors here, while the K'Chain in Kolanse seem to have preserved the memory of the event they remember happening through their genetic racial memory thingie.

Headaches, I have them now. Sleeeeep. Wants it.

This post has been edited by Puck: 13 March 2015 - 07:30 PM

[worry]

I suppose it matters what Morn was before it was destroyed, and how KCCM kept records or transmitted information to each other. Could have been a thriving Icarias-like city? Maybe KCCM keeps had ansibles and digital info storage.

Or it could be as simple as Kallor already working for TCG, who is in MOI quite privy to the Morn Matron's mind. Plus all the undead K'ell Hunters are from Morn, aren't they?

[amphibian]

It also could be that Ahkrast Korvalain ate the land that is the Glass Desert after being permanently broken into locust like things.

The breaking doesn't have to be the start of the Glass Desert either. It's a mindless and lost god wandering around.

[Egwene]

Edit: deleted nonsensical post - obviously hit wrong button at some point whilst writing my post which is the next one.

This post has been edited by Egwene: 16 March 2015 - 09:50 AM

[Egwene]

"when other races appeared through the cracks of chaos – which could now reach this and every realm

From the quotes Puck dug out, the above sentence seems to me to be the most important one. It states fairly clearly that before the Matron opened a portal, there had not been any rents into chaos at all. If one takes that as being the case, then to have a rent with someone described as 'the last matron' in it, well, there seems to be far too much cause and effect given for it not to be connected.

It doesn't matter that the remains of the Assail God are not on Morn as it does say that he was shattered and lost. SE needed the Assail presence in the Glass Desert and all the info we had beforehand could be fitted in with this. It also fits with many other instances where we see the results of an action first and then are filled in on a bit of background later, often from a totally different angle.

[heavymetaltroll]

Wasn't it the soul of the Matron in Morn that sealed the rent, and her body was entombed? I'm sure when Kilava sent the two Jaghut children into the rent the Matron's soul returned to her entombed body and it was the time spent imprisoned that turned her mad. I could be wrong though.

[Egwene]

heavymetaltroll, on 15 March 2015 - 03:06 AM, said:

Wasn't it the soul of the Matron in Morn that sealed the rent, and her body was entombed? I'm sure when Kilava sent the two Jaghut children into the rent the Matron's soul returned to her entombed body and it was the time spent imprisoned that turned her mad. I could be wrong though.

No, you are right, those two, we know are the same. The question is whether that matron is also identical to the matron from the story which Kalyth tells.

[Gorefest]

Egwene, on 14 March 2015 - 08:00 PM, said:

"when other races appeared through the cracks of chaos – which could now reach this and every realm

From the quotes Puck dug out, the above sentence seems to me to be the most important one. It states fairly clearly that before the Matron opened a portal, there had not been any rents into chaos at all. If one takes that as being the case, then to have a rent with someone described as 'the last matron' in it, well, there seems to be far too much cause and effect given for it not to be connected.

It doesn't matter that the remains of the Assail God are not on Morn as it does say that he was shattered and lost. SE needed the Assail presence in the Glass Desert and all the info we had beforehand could be fitted in with this. It also fits with many other instances where we see the results of an action first and then are filled in on a bit of background later, often from a totally different angle.

Sorry, lost track of this thread, so a bit late back into the reply.

The rent at Morn, according to Kallor in MoI, was not caused during the K'Chain vs FA wars. It was caused, presumably, during the Che'Malle vs Nah'ruk wars. So I do not see why the FA god would at all be involved in the creation of the rent at Morn. Of course Kallor may be considered an unreliable narrator due to not having full access to the information, but as he states himself in MoI, this is what his people learned from archeological (written) accounts left by the Che'Malle on Jacuruku. So I still see no actual evidence or any reason to assume in any of the books that suggest that the rent at Morn and the destruction of the FA god/Glass Desert are related.There are various Matrons, and someone naming one Matron the 'first' can simply mean the first known one on that continent, or in the very convoluted time line. No reasons why there wouldn't be other Matrons opening portals, these Matrons were on par in magic power with the Elder Gods.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 27 March 2015 - 11:18 AM

[Egwene]

Whereabouts in MoI does Kallor say that the Rent was positively not caused by the K'Chain/FA wars? Could you dig out the chapter and if possible page ref for me, please?

Here is a recap of everything relevant dug up so far ( I have tried to be as neutral in the summary as possible)

Kalyth's report must be considered to be the most accurate K'Chain Che'Malle point of view, as she, in her own words, knows their history now as if it was their own. She makes the following points:

*the last surviving Matron
*opened a portal to the heart of chaos
*the gate, which she had sealed with her own body, her own life force, opened. To devour the Assail god's soul.
*What remained of him, in this realm, was shattered, mindless and lost.
*other races appeared through the cracks of chaos – which could now reach this and every realm

Scabandaris in the MT prologue makes the following observations from the Tiste PoV:

*his forces are camped in the tents of the first Landing
*three Matrons were involved in the battle
*he thinks of the last stand of one of the Matrons
*four-hundred thousand Tiste Andii fought sixty-thousand K'ell Hunters
*short-tails, few in numbers, defended sky-keeps against attacking Tiste
*there are other Tiste on this world... that first wave...
*K'Chain Che'Malle are all but gone... they have seen the many other dead cities
*only Morn remains... on a distant continent...
*where the Short-Tails even now break their chains in bloody rebellion
*Forkrul Assail seem unwilling to pass judgement on the Tiste
*and each year there seem to be fewer and fewer of them (FA that is)

Gothos then observes in the next bit of the prologue:

*they (the K'Chain Che'Malle) were dying out anyway, for myriad reasons
*Elder God Mael comes in answer to the violent rift torn between the realms
*the Rift is called 'the rent' by Mael
*Gothos and Mael agree that, incorrectly, Scabandari seems to regard the K'Chain Che'Malle his only enemies in this realm
*Mael asks Gothos to freeze time in this place (of the rent) as he has seen a vision of the future which requires it to be preserved
*Anomander Rake is already around and about to face Osserc, again

Kallor makes the following observation:
*‘She sought to harness the power of a gate itself, but not simply a common warren’s gate. Oh no, she elected to open the portal that led to the Realm of Chaos. Such hubris, to think she could control – could assert order – upon such a thing.’ He paused, as if reconsidering his own words, then laughed. ‘Oh, a bitter lesson or two in that tale, don’t you think?'

*From the events at the end of the Pannion war, we know that a Matron had sealed the Rent at Morn and that the same Matron was released slowly, albeit mad, when the Jaghut child took her place. What was left of her then in turn released the Jaghut girl.


If anyone has any more snippets to add to the pile... all offerings gratefully received :-)

[Imperial Historian]

By your own quotes the rift/rent referred to at the start of midnight tides cannot refer to the rent at Morn as matron's are referenced as still surviving in a civil war on Morn in that same section.


The rift in midnight tides refers to the passage the andii/edur used to enter Wu, not the rent into chaos found at Morn. Later anomander and kilmandaros pass through the rift into emurlahn and cleanse the realm.

I think the rent referred to by Kalyth and that found at Morn are probably two distinct examples as 1) we know the k'chain and forkrul warred, but all references to the torn apart forkrul god reference letheras not genabackis 2) mael refers to, and I think MOI and kallor reference the war between the k'chain che'malle and the nah'ruk on genabackis.

Quote

Very well. Perhaps there is more wisdom present here than I had previously credited.
The beasts appear to be reptilian, capable of breeding their own kind to specific
talents. Those the Tiste Andü called K'ell Hunters, for example, were born as warriors.
Undead versions are in the valley below, yes? They had no hands, but swords in their
stead, somehow melded to the very bones of their forearms. The K'Chain Che'Malle
were matriarchal, matrilineal. As a population of bees have their queen, so too these
beasts. She is the breeder, the mother of every child. And within this Matron resided
the sorcerous capacity of her entire family. Power to beggar the gods of today. Power
to keep the Elder Gods from coming to this world, and were it not for the selfdestruction
of the K'Chain Che'Malle, they would rule unchallenged to this day.'
'Self-destruction,' Korlat said, a sharpness in her eyes as she studied Kallor. 'An
interesting detail. Can you explain?'
'Of course. Among the records found, once the language was deciphered—and that
effort alone is worthy of lengthy monologue, but seeing how you all shift about in your
saddles like impatient children, I'll spare the telling. Among the records found, then, it
was learned that the Matrons, each commanding the equivalent of a modern city, had
gathered to meld their disparate ambitions. What they sought, beyond the vast power
they already possessed, is not entirely clear. Then again, what need there be for
reasons when ambition rules? Suffice to say, an ancient breed was… resurrected,
returned from extinction by the Matrons; a more primitive version of the K'Chain
Che'Malle themselves. For lack of a better name, my scholars at the time called them
Short-Tails.'
Whiskeyjack, his eyes on Korlat, was the only one to see her stiffen at that. Behind
him, he could hear Silverfox and Kruppe making their way back up the slope.
'For the singular reason,' Kallor went on in his dry monotone, 'that they physically
deviated from the other K'Chain Che'Malle in having short, stubby tails rather than the
normal, long, tapered ones. This made them not as swift—more upright, suited to
whatever world and civilization they had originally belonged to. Alas, these new
children were not as tractable as the Matrons were conditioned to expect among their
brood—more explicitly, the Short-Tails would not surrender or merge their magical
talents with their mothers'. The result was a civil war, and the sorceries unleashed
were apocalyptic. To gauge something of the desperation among the Matrons, one
need only travel south on this continent, to a place called Morn.'
'The Rent,' Korlat murmured, nodding.
Kallor's smile was wintry. 'She sought to harness the power of a gate itself, but not
simply a common warren's gate. Oh no, she elected to open the portal that led to the
Realm of Chaos. Such hubris, to think she could control—could assert order—upon
such a thing.'

It's possible that kallor is wrong and the two rents are one and the same and kallor merely misinterpreted it, but I think that perhaps the use of a warren of chaos was known to all matrons and two of them used it in desperate circumstances one on genabackis and one on letheras.

[Gorefest]

I was indeed referring to the above passage. It can be found in MoI, mine being the 2001 bantam edition, page 592. Kallor clearly states that the rent at Morn was created during the che'malle vs nah'ruk wars, not the k'chain vs fa wars. Of course Kallor may be misinformed, but i see no reason why SE would bother with misinformation here as it does not serve any purpose to the story or to later developments. It is much more straightforward to simply accept that this was an ability available to matrons in general and various matrons used it as a last resort during various wars.

[Puck]

I have found another quote from tCG, which I had not seen previously, and that may be an indication that the two events are separate, as in: the K'Chain vs. FA war came first, and the K'Chain vs. Nah'ruk later.. Look:

Quote

[Equity] If not for the Heart, if not for that fist of torment dredged up from the depths of the bay. All that power, so raw, so alien, so perfect in its denial. Our god was slain, but we had already found a path to vengeance – the Nah'ruk, who had broken their chains and now thirsted for the blood of their masters. So much was already within our reach.
But for the Heart, so firing Reverence, Serenity and the other elders, so poisoning their souls. No balance could be perfect – we all knew that – but now a new solution burned bright, so bright it blinded them to all else. The Gate, wrested away from the K'Chain Che'Malle, cleansed of that foul, ancient curse. Akhrast Korvalain, returned once more to the Forkrul Assail, and from that gate – from the power of the Heart – we could resurrect our god.
[tCG, HC, p. 250]

Bolded for emphasis. At the very least it's a possible indication that the two events were separate.