[Egwene]

Point raised by Puck on another thread about Whiskejack being Iskar Jarak - or not.

Puck, on 14 January 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

I'm sorry for hi-jacking this thread, but I don't have a wiki account and there's something there that's been rubbing me the wrong way for a while now, and that's the assumption that Iskar Jarak is Whiskeyjack's real name (to be found in the last paragraph on Whiskeyjack's page). It isn't. The books directly say so.

Here's a quote to prove it:

Quote

[…], and there was Iskar Jarak himself, although why Whiskeyjack had come to prefer some Seven Cities name – in place of his real one – made no sense to Toc. […]
[TtH, HC, p. 876]

I've been seeing this bandied around the interet for a while now, but I'm too lazy to make an account just to change that. So if someone would be so kind..

[Egwene]

The quote isn't actually evidence of the two not being the same. It is only evidence of Toc not knowing of any connection.

However... what is the evidence that they are the same?

This is what we have on the Wiki. Is this conclusive evidence?

While travelling in the Jhag Odhan, Samar Dev along with Karsa Orlong, met with Boatfinder, a tribal chieftien, who revealed that Whiskeyjack, using his Seven Cities moniker, Iskar Jarak, warned the tribal people of Ugari and Anibar of a time of great slaying, and in a time of great peril, wielders of birth-stones (Karsa's flint sword) would come to defend them. Samar Dev later revealed that "King Iskar Jarak" had a bridge, and it was burning. - The Bonehunters, Chapter 11, UK HB p. 590-595

Can anyone make a case for either side of the argument?

[D'rek]

Right. Iskar Jarak is how the Anibar referred to WJ. I don't recall anything saying that it was his "real" name, and as Puck pointed out that seems to be contradicted by the quote from Toc.

He's also called Bird-That-Steals by the Moranth.


edit: xpost - I think it's fair to say WJ went by "Iskar Jarak" during the 7C re-conquests at some point. Maybe it means something in one of the 7C languages (or maybe it is just a translation/syllable-correlation of Whiskeyjack). That's the name he introduced himself as to the Anibar and presumably some others for Toc to know it. But it seems it is not his 'real' name.

[worry]

Yah. Nobody is saying Whiskeyjack isn't Iskar Jarak, only that it's not his real name (nor his "real" soldier name). It's just how a few Seven Cities tribes took his name and speaks to the game of telephone that went on linguistically. And being the multifaceted diplomat he is, WJ accepted it.

[Puck]

Worry basically says what I meant. My point is, Iskar Jarak is a bastardization of Whiskeyjack, probably what comes out when Seven Cities natives try to pronounce Whiskeyjack, supposedly a Malaz name/word. We know he got the name Whiskeyjack thanks to an incident with his sister and Hood's temple ('Bird-That-Steals', right?), so it's not his real name, so how would a different pronounciation of Whiskeyjack suddenly qualify as a real name?

The reason I brought it us was because I've been seeing that not only on the wiki (had to edit it out of tvtropes, and it just bugs me), and there's no evidence to support it. I never said Iskar Jarak is not Whiskeyjack..

This post has been edited by Puck: 14 January 2015 - 09:07 PM

[Wolfdrop]

I was always under the impression that Iskar Jarak was a title rather than name. Didn't it translate to the Iron Prophet or something?

I remember the Anibar telling Karsa how the Iron Prophet warned them of something, maybe it was the Malazan Empire itself, told them to migrate to avoid being consumed or something, I can't remember.

The "Iron" came from wearing armour presumably ( the Anibar have probably never seen a group of heavily armoured guys/ armoured soldiers) and "Prophet" from telling them to migrate to save themselves maybe?

That's just what I remember of it, might be wrong or missing things though!

[D'rek]

Puck, on 14 January 2015 - 08:50 PM, said:

Worry basically says what I meant. My point is, Iskar Jarak is a bastardization of Whiskeyjack, probably what comes out when Seven Cities natives try to pronounce Whiskeyjack, supposedly a Malaz name/word. We know he got the name Whiskeyjack thanks to an incident with his sister and Hood's temple ('Bird-That-Steals', right?), so it's not his real name, so how would a different pronounciation of Whiskeyjack suddenly qualify as a real name?

It fits, but I don't think we ever got any hard confirmation that that is where the name Whiskeyjack comes from.

Wolfdrop, on 14 January 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

I was always under the impression that Iskar Jarak was a title rather than name. Didn't it translate to the Iron Prophet or something?

I remember the Anibar telling Karsa how the Iron Prophet warned them of something, maybe it was the Malazan Empire itself, told them to migrate to avoid being consumed or something, I can't remember.

The "Iron" came from wearing armour presumably ( the Anibar have probably never seen a group of heavily armoured guys/ armoured soldiers) and "Prophet" from telling them to migrate to save themselves maybe?

That's just what I remember of it, might be wrong or missing things though!

The Anibar do also call him the Iron Prophet, but I don't think it's supposed to be a translation of Iskar Jarak, just another title/name they have for him.

[Abyss]

Just to complicate things, once he died and ascended, the Anibar's worship of him under the name 'Iskar Jarak' may have affected his aspect, which would also explain why he referred to himself that way during the prep for the Dragnipur battle.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 14 January 2015 - 09:25 PM, said:

Just to complicate things, once he died and ascended, the Anibar's worship of him under the name 'Iskar Jarak' may have affected his aspect, which would also explain why he referred to himself that way during the prep for the Dragnipur battle.

Yup. Either that or WJ is a closet Otaku who was cosplaying in what he *thought* would be a deserted area of 7C and when the BBs met the Anibar he just had to roll with it. Once dead, he thought he could finally cosplay in peace but nooooooooo war against Chaos in Dragnipur

[Egwene]

Thanks for all the input.

I have made the name references less definite and added a speculations section with a link to this thread.

http://malazan.wikia...iki/Whiskeyjack

Take a look at it, Puck, and let me know if you are happy with the re-phrasing.

[heavymetaltroll]

Could it be that Iskar Jarack is in fact his real name and Toc just didn't know that? It is likely that Toc would only know him as Whiskeyjack through the Malazan army and we know Whiskeyjack isn't his birth name like Fiddlers' isn't really Fiddler and Braven Tooths' isn't really Braven Tooth. Most Malazans wouldnt know that and only know them as their army names. Whiskeyjacks use of Iskar Jarack after ascending would seem a strong nod towards it being his real name, though with Erikson who can ever really know?

[Egwene]

heavymetaltroll, on 11 February 2015 - 05:45 AM, said:

Could it be that Iskar Jarack is in fact his real name and Toc just didn't know that? It is likely that Toc would only know him as Whiskeyjack through the Malazan army and we know Whiskeyjack isn't his birth name like Fiddlers' isn't really Fiddler and Braven Tooths' isn't really Braven Tooth. Most Malazans wouldnt know that and only know them as their army names. Whiskeyjacks use of Iskar Jarack after ascending would seem a strong nod towards it being his real name, though with Erikson who can ever really know?

Thanks heavymetaltroll, that's what I have gone with over on the Wiki. Chances are it is his real name but obviously, unless SE lets it slip, we have no way of knowing for definite.

[worry]

I have the opposite view. Chances are near 100% it's not his real name. It's a nickname bestowed upon him by the aforementioned tribes (thus the very specific meaning in their language -- if it was his "real" name that would be a mighty big coincidence), and it sticks post-death due to the great reverence they had for him.

The big irony is that this was all probably just Malazan conquering strategy...take out those who could resist the strongest (the Ugari, who live behind walls), then the Bridgeburners come in and stop the violence and make "peace" with the remaining Ugari and the Anibar, who are quite grateful...the "wielders of the birth-stone" WJ tells them about are probably actually the T'lan Imass under ST's control, not Karsa. The Iron Prophet's prophecy is a Malazan sham.

[Egwene]

worry, on 11 February 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

I have the opposite view. Chances are near 100% it's not his real name. It's a nickname bestowed upon him by the aforementioned tribes (thus the very specific meaning in their language -- if it was his "real" name that would be a mighty big coincidence), and it sticks post-death due to the great reverence they had for him.

The big irony is that this was all probably just Malazan conquering strategy...take out those who could resist the strongest (the Ugari, who live behind walls), then the Bridgeburners come in and stop the violence and make "peace" with the remaining Ugari and the Anibar, who are quite grateful...the "wielders of the birth-stone" WJ tells them about are probably actually the T'lan Imass under ST's control, not Karsa. The Iron Prophet's prophecy is a Malazan sham.

You are probably right, Worry, to be cynical.

I wrote on the wiki: "It is possible that Iskar Jarak was Whiskeyjack's original name but there was no concusive proof." Hopefully that covers it from both ends.

I have added your suggestion of WJ possibly meaning the T'lan. Do let me know if you see anything else that may need tweeking.

[Puck]

Why would Karsa be meant by 'wielders of birth-stones'? Whiskeyjack doesn't possess any prophetic abilities. Back when he was in Seven Cities Karsa was safely tugged up in Genabackis; the T'lan Imass, on the other hand, were out and about serving the Empire. As worry already said, that's either a malazan scam or simply Whiskeyjack being a softy and trying to get the Anibar out of harm's way.

Another thing, and I'm repeating myself: Iskar Jarak is a different way to write/pronounce Whiskeyjack. How do I know for sure? I happen to know that the translator had to ask SE about whether Iskar Jarak was a variant of Whiskeyjack, and receiving a 'yes' planned to accordingly use a variant of Whiskeyjack's german name instead; I have, admitedly, not read the german version of tBH, so I cannot say what came of this.

Anyway, how come that there are pages that present stuff out of nowhere as fact (where the hell does it say Kagamandra Tulas was Rake's cousin? - Not going to start on the whole War on Death thing, as it could be either way; but if everyone's so eager to stuff any interpretation in there, Kagamandra himself thinks he was killed by Rake...) while we have to argue back and forth about things that are utterly logical if one thinks about it for as much as a minute? Call me an arsehole, but sorry, that just baffles me. One could say 'Then go and edit it.', but there's just so much of it I do not know where to start or on whose toes I'm going to tread. I've had enough run-ins with some people due to selective reading that I'm not eager for a repeat-showing. /rant

Take that as you want to. Anyone, really.

This post has been edited by Puck: 11 February 2015 - 02:08 PM

[Egwene]

It's an open Wikipedia, Puck. Anyone can add info and it will stay there unless someone else comes along and changes it. I am trying to encourage people to add source references so at some point in the far future hopefully you'll be able to go back to the relevant pages in the books and crosscheck what's there.

In the meantime, if you do come across anything you think is wrong, please, please, please, do bring it to my attention and I will look into it. I'll open a new thread on the Wiki board for the purpose of reporting dodgy info.

I started this thread specifically because I wasn't happy with the entry for Whiskeyjack and wanted to pick everyone's brain to get the correct information in place. I keep editing the page to reflect the consensus.

You say that "I happen to know that the translator had to ask SE about whether Iskar Jarak was a variant of Whiskeyjack, and receiving a 'yes' planned to accordingly use a variant of Whiskeyjack's german name instead." The name for Whiskeyjack in the German editions is 'Elster' which is German for 'Magpie'. I don't know what Iskar Jarak was translated as. If you could find that translation, than that would go a long way towards clarifying the issue. When you say you 'happen to know'... is there an interview somewhere or has the translator spoken about it... Again, if we had a transcript of that, we could use it as source reference.

The Karsa bit... again... I am not familiar with that particular part of the book so if you could point me towards chapter/page, I'll edit to reflect what you guys are saying.

[worry]

Here's the thing with Karsa: since WJ wasn't ever actually a prophet, and because the Anibar did leave the area for safer havens, the TI (probably) never actually got involved. Then years later Karsa shows up with HIS Imass blade and knocks around some Edur, so Boatfinder connects the dots to the prophecy. So there is a distinction to be made between Boatfinder's personal perspective and the actual reality of the situation (at least as I interpret it).

[Puck]

I may do that, one day, but the problem is, these days I am way too busy and I actually keep my own kinda-sorta malazan wiki, so I mostly don't care, but my friend intends to read the series soon-ish and asked about the wiki, so I started noticing things on there. I realise I should stop bitching about it, but I really have no time at all for these things atm.

As to the translation.. I am a mod at the german malazan forum. The translator occasionally pops in, so we do get some translation related info. I dug around some and could link the relevant thread if that would help. Btw, Whiskeyjack is another name for the canadian jay/gray jay, hence the german variant of the name. Iskar Jarak was transliterated as Elis Terr, according to the aforementioned thread.

The relevant quote re Karsa/T'lan Imass is from tBH, Chapter 12, and there are two mentions of birth-stone:

Quote

[Boatfinder] '[...] Yet,’ he gestured at his warriors, ‘we follow you. We witness the Deliverer slaying the bhederin. He rides a bone-horse – we do not see a bone-horse ridden. He carries a sword of birth-stone. The Iron Prophet tells our people of such warriors – the wielders of birth-stone. He says they come.’

If one decifers it, one get's this:
birth-stone -> flint sword, first mention refers to Karsa's sword, which he wields at that point, however what Whiskeyjack meant were the swords of the T'lan Imass as he could not have foreseen Karsa ever encountering the Anibar.. get my drift? It's just coincidence that Karsa happens to also wield one. But I see you have added a possibility of that to the page, which is better than it used to be, in any case.

Edit: Also, what worry said!

This post has been edited by Puck: 12 February 2015 - 12:44 AM

[Hetan]

Puck - regarding Tulas Shorn - it's in TtH so that's not incorrect. I guess quite a few of the Andii and Edur are going to be 'related' through FL and MD.

[Puck]

Now, that just made me go and search all of TtH but I cannot find it. This sure bugs me now It would make sense in that whole Eleint/Tiam/MD/FL context, and less so based on what we see in FoD.