[Berufend]

SPOILERS and such below...

I'm not sure how I feel now that I am finished with CG. The book itself was great but I cringe at the thought of what it will take to get a 'total understanding'. I know Ericson does not want to "spoon feed" readers, but I also think that is a little bit of a line to feed people for not having to make everything very clear. If you have to read through a story several times to get a strong understanding it may have been a little beneficial to give some background somewhere. I remember after the third or fourth book wanting to tear my face off trying to follow all the dates only to come on these forums and realize they were done kinda half arsed and made up. The books are complex enough, no need to add to the equation with inconsistency of dates and numbers. I think one day I would like to try to read them again...I have all of the Esslemont books but could not even make it through one. The writing does not rope me in as well but if I do a reread I'll include them in the proper order...

Now that my overall thoughts are out of the way, some questions about TCG:

1) Where was Draconus in the end? I know he took out 2 of the Elder Gods, was he still hunting the Errant? You would think he would have been somewhere near all that "world ending" craziness not exacting revenge.

2) How is it Hetan returned? Seems kind of cheesy she is whole and back - do we know why or how? If she came back, why not just bring back all the other characters that met a tragic end as well...

3) Was the "Plan" failed all along? I know it all came together the way the Adjunct (or ST & Cotillian) pushed, but only because a TON of unplanned things happened. They clearly did not plan on all of the side events that 'saved the day'.,,,i'm thinking of all the times that some group or powerful person surprisingly showed up to help save the battle last minute.

4) Why did the Adjuncts sword summon the dragon? I believe an earlier book made it pretty clear that there were other Ototaral weapons/items around (such as Kalams blades or the powder used by the assassins, etc). Why would the dragon not just be summoned to that giant island made of the stuff or the many other items?

5) Was anything eventually explained about Ruthan Gudd? I have a feeling this may be a "different book" question.

6) The poems before every chapter...am I the only one to glaze over them and move on? After reading the first few dozen it just felt like words on paper, especially when some went on for 2 plus pages.

I feel the Karsa killing the God from the alter was a little lame. Just like that this powerful God is dead from one slice at his alter? And wouldn't Karsa have preferred an actual battle? On that note, how were people like Ges and Stormy suddenly summoning Gods without knowing it?

Ok, I'll leave off with some happy moments. I loved the Kalam/QB team up again. Some great scenes there. I missed Tehol but was laughing out loud with his letter. I also loved the reference to the first few pages of the entire series and the 'full circle' of it all. Fiddler comments about Paran (though he does not use his name) talking to an officer (WJ) about 'paths that are chosen' and all of that. At the very end of the book he is talking to a kid that wants to be a soldier and I had to go open up GOTM, read the first few pages, and appreciate it all over again. And yes, I can tell just from reading those few pages that a reread will make such sense of this all...i just dont know if I have it in me at this time. Also, my jaw almost hit the floor when I thought Tavore killed her brother with that swing at the end of the book...it was perfect. She was not looking, his helmet was off...I thought for sure she would kill him like she did their sister without realizing it. I wonder if she ever found that out....

[Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai]

I would like to address the Esslemont part for you. I would say that he gets better with each book, an opinion I have seen others also share. I myself, really enjoyed them all and they add alot of story and more strong characters to the world. I can't believe you didn't like Night of Knives. That was probably my favourite Esslemont book because it was drpping with history and flavour! I hope you give him another chance. I think rereading books, or books that you can still enjoy and find new things out of upon a reread, is a strength. I just reread A Song of Ice and Fire straight through and took a lot more in, and those books are probably 1% as complicated as Malazan books! lol. I do see your point though, theres alot of 'work' to be done to understand certain things, and contradictory dates doesn't help. The way I see it is, the whole thing is written by Historians, and different historians never agree on dates really, especially as the stories get further away from when they actually happened. I have seen it suggested on here to just ignore the dates tbh, but there are a lot of smart people on here who have read this beast a few times who do a great job of reasoning out the dates and getting it more or less in line. I think once you have chatted to some of these guys and girls with more Malaz knowledge than me, you may want to reread even more than you already do. I know thats what happened to me!

A few of your answers can be found in Esslemont books too, another reason to read em

[Andorion]

Berufend, on 24 July 2014 - 05:51 AM, said:

SPOILERS and such below...

I'm not sure how I feel now that I am finished with CG. The book itself was great but I cringe at the thought of what it will take to get a 'total understanding'. I know Ericson does not want to "spoon feed" readers, but I also think that is a little bit of a line to feed people for not having to make everything very clear. If you have to read through a story several times to get a strong understanding it may have been a little beneficial to give some background somewhere. I remember after the third or fourth book wanting to tear my face off trying to follow all the dates only to come on these forums and realize they were done kinda half arsed and made up. The books are complex enough, no need to add to the equation with inconsistency of dates and numbers. I think one day I would like to try to read them again...I have all of the Esslemont books but could not even make it through one. The writing does not rope me in as well but if I do a reread I'll include them in the proper order...

Now that my overall thoughts are out of the way, some questions about TCG:

1) Where was Draconus in the end? I know he took out 2 of the Elder Gods, was he still hunting the Errant? You would think he would have been somewhere near all that "world ending" craziness not exacting revenge.

2) How is it Hetan returned? Seems kind of cheesy she is whole and back - do we know why or how? If she came back, why not just bring back all the other characters that met a tragic end as well...

3) Was the "Plan" failed all along? I know it all came together the way the Adjunct (or ST & Cotillian) pushed, but only because a TON of unplanned things happened. They clearly did not plan on all of the side events that 'saved the day'.,,,i'm thinking of all the times that some group or powerful person surprisingly showed up to help save the battle last minute.

4) Why did the Adjuncts sword summon the dragon? I believe an earlier book made it pretty clear that there were other Ototaral weapons/items around (such as Kalams blades or the powder used by the assassins, etc). Why would the dragon not just be summoned to that giant island made of the stuff or the many other items?

5) Was anything eventually explained about Ruthan Gudd? I have a feeling this may be a "different book" question.

6) The poems before every chapter...am I the only one to glaze over them and move on? After reading the first few dozen it just felt like words on paper, especially when some went on for 2 plus pages.

I feel the Karsa killing the God from the alter was a little lame. Just like that this powerful God is dead from one slice at his alter? And wouldn't Karsa have preferred an actual battle? On that note, how were people like Ges and Stormy suddenly summoning Gods without knowing it?

Ok, I'll leave off with some happy moments. I loved the Kalam/QB team up again. Some great scenes there. I missed Tehol but was laughing out loud with his letter. I also loved the reference to the first few pages of the entire series and the 'full circle' of it all. Fiddler comments about Paran (though he does not use his name) talking to an officer (WJ) about 'paths that are chosen' and all of that. At the very end of the book he is talking to a kid that wants to be a soldier and I had to go open up GOTM, read the first few pages, and appreciate it all over again. And yes, I can tell just from reading those few pages that a reread will make such sense of this all...i just dont know if I have it in me at this time. Also, my jaw almost hit the floor when I thought Tavore killed her brother with that swing at the end of the book...it was perfect. She was not looking, his helmet was off...I thought for sure she would kill him like she did their sister without realizing it. I wonder if she ever found that out....

1. Regarding Draconus, Shadowthrone told him something, or cut a deal with him. Then he went off. Also if you pay attention to the conversation between Tulas Shorn and Silchas Ruin there was a hint of a possible reconciliation between Mother Dark and Draconus.
2. Blanking on Hetan, but I remember when she returned to Tool, Toc was seen in the distant. Toc is now part of the realm of Death, so he might have something to do with it. Also remember Toc denied Tool entry into Death so he could be with Hetan. This was probably recompense.
3. It might have seemed that a number of random events helped the plan to succeed, but my impression was that Tavore was not really counting on all of that happening. Her's was a do or die effort. But from perspective of ST and Cotillion, nothing was unplanned or random. They manuevered and manipulated circumstances to suit them. Note Draconus and ST, ST and Cotillion conversations.
4. Regarding the Otataral, I am again a bit hazy but I remember the Sword summoned the Dragon while D'rek the Worm of Autumn was encircling the hill. I think D'reks power played a major role in the summoning.
5. Ruthan Gudd remains a mystery, but there is at least one thread chock full of speculation lying around here somewhere.
6. The poems resonate a lot more on the re-read.

I know you found the series a bit exhausting, but trust me it gets loads better on the re-read, as in the goodness increases exponentially.
Also start the Kharkanas trilogy, read FoD, Lots more info on Draconus and Co.

[worry]

Toc gathers all the various parts of Hetan. Her soul was preserved by Badalle (and kept from going through Hood's Gate), he finds her body near a bolder, and those scenes are present in the book.

Karsa doesn't just kill Fener, Fener opens himself up to being killed as a sacrifice (not to mention being totally vulnerable as he was knocked from his warren), that's why there's no need for a fight.

[cabald]

I just want to say that as funny as Tehols letter was, his brothers reaction to it was absolutely devastating to read. Just thinking about it hits me in the feels. Really powerful stuff there.

[D'rek]

re: Hetan - as said above, Badalle took hold of her soul when she died (when you re-read the Badalle section right after Hetan dies in DoD it's very obvious) and Toc found her body. Most importantly, Toc placed that body close to the battlefield so Fener's blood would spill on it and restore it to life (and her soul could re-inhabit it since Badalle kept it from going through Hood's Gate). As to *why* Badalle randomly took hold of Hetan's soul and no one else's ever...


re: Karsa killing Fener - it mimics a scene back in HoC from when Karsa was younger, and it was a vow he made a long time ago. Stormy wasn't just summoning any god, he was summoning Fener, which he and Gesler have been linked to for decades as they started the Boar Cult in the Malazan army long, long ago... they're essentially High Priests of Fener. Fener himself, of course, was pulled out of his realm in DG by Heboric and we last saw him hiding in RG. He said back then that he felt a final battle was coming and he couldn't survive it. Letting himself be killed by Karsa to restore life to the plains below was a sacrifice Fener chose to make (and I'm sure Hood was part of making these arrangements, as he sent Picker to tell Karsa the details of how to do it).


re: Tavore's plan (#3) - We'll never know for sure, but it definitely does seem like there were many things Tavore did not account for. On the other hand, the end result was far better than Tavore had anticipated, either. If we take out all the possible unexpected surprises, we'd be left with the Bonehunters and whatever allies they could muster - let's say the Khundryl and Perish, but not the K'Chain, Letheri, Bolkando, Gilk or Tarthenal - still doing the same plan. In that case:

-The Shake would probably still have gone to Lightfall and fought there. Tavore would still have manipulated Sandalath into going after them. So not much difference there.
-The Khundryl and regulars of the 14th would still fight in the center of Kolanse, and probably all die without Ganoes' Host reinforcing them.
-The Perish would presumably still have taken the southern route and tried to assault The Spire. Maybe they would have all died in the attempt, or maybe they would have succeeded and somehow gotten the Heart to the marines' barrow. Assume extremely heavy losses. Maybe they just push through to the Heart and get it sent to the Barrow and then all die.
-the marines still fight to defend the Heart on the Barrow while the CG is restored. If they hold out long enough, Korabas arrives, the attackers all die and the CG's chains are broken. If not, they fail and die. Even if they succeed, all their allies are dead and they can try and limp back to Letheras before the remaining FA forces kill them.

So, Tavore's plan might still have worked without the K'Chain Che'malle and other allies. Or maybe not. Maybe without the allies but also without the Nah'ruk attack they would have succeeded. Even with the K'Chain, Bolkando and Letheri, Tavore was not expecting any of the Bonehunters to survive except the marines because she didn't know Ganoes' army even existed. So maybe without those allies she would have succeeded but with much worse losses. Or maybe not. No matter what though, I think she still would have tried!

[Spoilsport Stonny]

A little quote fu for ya re: hetan and Badelle from DoD, Ch. 17:

Quote

Saddic, are you still alive? I have dreamed a thing. This thing was a vision, the death of a lizard-wolf lying curled on its side, the danger of bones beneath the sun. Listen to my dream, Saddic, and remember.
Greed is the knife in the sheath of ambition. You see the wicked gleam when you’ve drawn too close. Too close to get away, and as I told you: greed invites death, and now death takes her twice. This thing was a vision. She died not forty paces from her brother, and above her two armies war in the heavens, and beasts that are brothers are about to lock jaws upon each other’s throat. Strange names, strange faces. Painted white like the Quitters. A man with sad eyes whose name is Sceptre Irkullas.
Such a sky, such a sky!
Greed and ambition, Saddic. Greed and treachery. Greed and justice. These are the reasons of fate, and every reason is a lie.
She was dead before dawn. I held her broken soul in my hands. I hold it still. As Rutt holds Held.
I knew a boy.
Absi, where are you?

Also just a slight adjustment to D'rek's brilliant recap, it was actually Baudin who caused Fener to be ripped from his realm by taking the unconcious Heboric's jade-infected stump and touching a focal point of the woad tattoo's on Heboric's body. Semantics, yes, but I hesitate to think that would have been something that Heboric would have done on purpose, and then I imagine how things would have played out if Baudin never did that and then my mind hemorrhages.

[worry]

And of course Baudin ends up working for -- who else -- Hood! Not that I think it's set up, but that may be at least part of why Hood recognizes Baudin in particular.

Also that mention of Absi is interesting. The kid's a mysterious weirdo wunderkind, perhaps moreso than even Grub. And that explains Badalle's choice to hold on to Hetan I suppose.

[Berufend]

Guess I am going to have to reread it after all at some point. Thanks for all the comments. And I messed up, I started reading Stone Wielder..should have started with Knives but the other came first and for some reason I took it as first. Oops...

Looks like I will not stray far from the Malazan Empire after all! And yes, I am finishing up Game of Thrones...piece of cake after this stuff

[Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai]

Berufend, on 25 July 2014 - 05:04 AM, said:

Guess I am going to have to reread it after all at some point. Thanks for all the comments. And I messed up, I started reading Stone Wielder..should have started with Knives but the other came first and for some reason I took it as first. Oops...

Looks like I will not stray far from the Malazan Empire after all! And yes, I am finishing up Game of Thrones...piece of cake after this stuff

Nice mate, and enjoy, GoT is still a very rich and enjoyable story, if only GRRM would get his ass moving to get it bloody finished lol. Night of Knives is epic IMO and I have seen a lot of positive thoughts for it on here, even when people are generally a bit less warm to ICE as a whole. Can't wait to read Assail!