[theocean]

Can someone detail for me what took place during this entire event?? The move he had to make, why he felt that way? The challenge at the end of the book.

This post has been edited by theocean: 05 November 2013 - 05:47 PM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I'm quoting OST directly here, and maybe this will help clear a few things up.

Quote

On the third day Sall approached his father, Lo, where he stood facing the calm waters of the sheltered inlet. He bowed, requesting permission to speak.
‘Yes?’
‘Father … I have questions about what happened in the Great Hall …’
Lo slowly turned to face him more directly. ‘Oh?’
‘Yes.’ Sall drew a breath to steel himself. ‘Would you really have led us on a charge through the Moranth and on through the city – as you claimed?’
The tall slim man, extraordinarily slim even for the Seguleh, nodded his masked head as he considered the question. Seven hatch marks still marred the pale oval of that mask, as the First had judged that all challenges must wait until they were once more on the testing grounds at Cant. ‘It was a valid option. We would have finished the Moranth then passed on unharmed through the city, avoiding their fliers. Then we could have scattered into parties of two or three. Travelling only at night we would have reached the coast relatively unharmed. There was merit there.’
‘It was only chance, then, that it was the very option the First least wished to pursue. And because of that the mask did not come to you …’
Lo nodded again. ‘I merely presented the choice. Choices surround us every day, son. The test is in the choosing.’
Sall’s breath caught. ‘He passed your test.’
‘Yes. Sall, the truth of it is that once you are competent enough in your technique, or your speed is as great as it can be – then what differentiates those at the highest levels? The truth is that unquantifiable ability to read others. To enter into their skin. To be able to understand them so completely that you know what they will do before they do it themselves. A sort of complete empathy. Jan possessed that. We could not help but love him for it. Gall worshipped him. But Gall was a traditionalist and would not have followed the road Jan had chosen. And so Jan did what he had to do to ensure that the mask would not come to him. And Palla? Well, those two might as well have been husband and wife. She may never recover.’
‘And so it came to you – but you never challenged him!’
Lo’s voice took on an edge. ‘His entire life has been his test, Sall. That is my judgement.’

[theocean]

I just dont get why Jan basically pulled a Rake here... Thats kind of how it appears at least... am i right in that?

And why could orsu then offer the mask, it wasnt really his to offer?

Why did Gall turn it down? after just basically challenging in a way for it. Was it in the end Jans plan to break him by having him take his life? That seems like a lot of foreshadowing ability.

Am i trying to read to much into this... im never to sure in this malazan world how deeply things should be thought out.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Orsu offered the mask to Dassem because Jan told him to. I'm sure he didn't HAVE to do that, but Lo says they all loved Jan, and honoring his wish doesn't seem too outlandish. I believe he took Gall's death blow because it was the only way to ensure that Dassem got the mask and not Gall. Gall would not have followed the path that Jan preferred and apparently that Lo agreed with. Gall did not turn the mask down. Gall is only second, now that he has beaten Jan. I don't think he wanted to break Gall. In fact at one point Galls says this:

Quote

'We must not put down our swords. How can we abandon what it means to be Seguleh? It is not for you to propose such a thing.'

So Jan wants the Seguleh to stop being a warrior society and lay down their swords once he has that religious awakening, where he realizes the original First exiled them from Darujhistan because of their shame in defending and loyalty to the tyrant. He announces his intentions then is challenged by Gall, who is a traditionalist and doesn't want to change. Jan knows Dassem will do that, so he offers him the mask. Not sure where he gets the authority to offer the mask to Dassem, (in the beginning of the book when he is challenged by the Third to take position as the First, Jan says this:

Quote

So that is what they are whispering in the dormitories … How they have all forgotten. One does not claim First. It cannot be taken. It can only be given. And I – even I – was not judged worthy.

but he does and Dassem takes it and the rest is history.

EDIT: The more I read OST, the more I like it. There is a ton of stuff going on and the names that ICE uses for his characters border on terrible and make it hard to distinguish characters (Mok, Senu and Therule are WAY cooler names than Jan, Oru, Palla and Gall, and they also aren't close to or exactly like names of other characters used in other books). But OST is actually written pretty well and moves at a nice pace, with lots of stuff going on, has a bunch of my favorite series characters, and I like how it all wraps up in Darujhistan, for a pretty nice convergence of some of the more powerful characters in the series.

This post has been edited by Spoilsport Stonny: 05 November 2013 - 09:38 PM

[nacht]

theocean, on 05 November 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

I just dont get why Jan basically pulled a Rake here... Thats kind of how it appears at least... am i right in that?

And why could orsu then offer the mask, it wasnt really his to offer?

Why did Gall turn it down? after just basically challenging in a way for it. Was it in the end Jans plan to break him by having him take his life? That seems like a lot of foreshadowing ability.

Am i trying to read to much into this... im never to sure in this malazan world how deeply things should be thought out.

Jan pulled a Rake (Rakrifice :-) to destroy Gall (mentally) and thereby unify all the leadership under Daseem.

Gall never thought he was Jan's equal.

Quote

'Will Gall reclaim the Third?' Jan asked Palla.
She laughed, and, ducking her head, lifted her mask to take a pinched morsel of rice and meats. 'He will. And with gratitude to be back on his old rung again.'
'Gratitude? I did not act as I did for his benefit.'
She bowed, all formal, but her voice held humour: 'Gratitude for reminding everyone why he has remained Third for so long.'

but because of his conservative principles, he was forced to object to Jan's plan

Quote

Gall turned his back on Lo, the Eighth, and the man who all knew must be the slayer of Blacksword, the presumed Seventh. He faced Jan. 'We must not put down our swords. How can we abandon what it means to be Seguleh? It is not for you to propose such a thing.'

Jan felt remarkably calm in the face of what all others present must see as an inexcusable insult. The Third's behaviour was nothing less than a direct challenge. Jan knew that was exactly what Gall intended. Yet I am not strong enough! I will fall and all I have just glimpsed will be lost to us! Please, Gall, my old friend. Stand aside just this once …

After a long bracing breath Jan's answer emerged level and strong: 'I propose it because I have seen what we could all too easily become – what we must never become.'

The Third reached out as if begging something of him. In his gaze Jan saw the reluctance, the torment of his position. 'Please,' he whispered. 'Do not drive me to what duty demands of me …' 'I have spoken, Third,' Jan said. 'It shall be as I say.' And Gall said what Jan knew he felt he must as Third: 'Then I challenge you.'

So Jan makes an alternative plan of destroying Gall by sacrificing himself. The 2nd and 3rd are so good that they can't be forced to kill. The likely outcome was that Gall would defeat (but not kill) Jan (because of his weakened state) and enforce his will which was completely against Jan's plans.

Quote

Weakened as he was he did not know if he could succeed. Yet he must. He would give all he had left. Even if it meant destroying a friend.

So he taunts Gall, who comes in with power (but losing control)

Quote

The Third came on with more passion and power than he had ever displayed in all the years upon the practice sands. But Jan had been one of his teachers and knew what Gall would do before he knew himself. It must be quick – already I'm weakening. No hint. He mustn't have time to pull the thrust.

Because Jan sacrificed himself for the cause, Gall gives up.

The reason Oru gives the mask is because he has the spotless mask in his possession and he was instructed by Jan to handover the mask to the seventh and he was the one with the vision.

Basically, the same thing Stonny said :-)

This post has been edited by nacht: 06 November 2013 - 12:06 AM

[theocean]

Very fitting to have Daseem bear witness to another sacrifice... In the same city as he witnessed the last one.

[Abyss]

theocean, on 06 November 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

Very fitting to have Daseem bear witness to another sacrifice... In the same city as he witnessed the last one.

...and not coincidental for someone aspected to 'tragedy'.

[theocean]

theocean, on 06 November 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

Very fitting to have Daseem bear witness to another sacrifice... In the same city as he witnessed the last one.

IM just amazed at the scope of the books written by two authors flowing together as well as this has so far... I am running out of books though.

[nacht]

Abyss, on 06 November 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

theocean, on 06 November 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

Very fitting to have Daseem bear witness to another sacrifice... In the same city as he witnessed the last one.

...and not coincidental for someone aspected to 'tragedy'.

A very astute and interesting observation :-)

[Spoilsport Stonny]

His tragic presence also explains the reaction of the malazan army to the damage caused by the moranth munitions, something i thought about a while back.