[Hellmo]

Why did Tool help the Adjunct free Raest? It's well established that Laseen has no control over the T'lan Imass, and they have no reason to do her a favor. It also doesn't seem like the Imass would have any grudge against Rake, the Andii, or Darujhistan...and freeing a Tyrant seems like it would be completely abhorrent to a T'lan Imass, given the history.

[Aptorian]

The T'lan Imass still serve the empire at this point it seems. Most likely the connection between Emperor Kelanved and the T'lan Imass is still strong enough that his will is imposed upon them. Maybe he's simply ordered them to serve the empire or something like that.

Binding a powerful creature is only ever a temporary solution. If the Jaghut was released now, in a weakened state, then it could
be killed once and for all. Also, if I recall, Tool only realises who it is they have released after it is too late. They may not have realised or known that this was the barrow of Raest.

[worry]

I could be wrong/misremembering, but isn't Tool, regardless of the other Imass's relationship with Laseen and the Empire, working basically on inertia in GotM?

[Aptorian]

I'm not sure what you mean be inertia. Do you mean that Tool is just doing what he is doing because that is what Imass do?

Logross or one of the other Chieftains sends Tool to aid the Adjunct, he is not working autonomously. Tool is the one that is sent to free the Jaghut Tyrant because he is clanless. He has no family link to any of the other clans and so, if he is taken by the Jaghut, the Tyrant can not in turn assume control of an entire clan of T'lan Imass.

[worry]

Yah that's all true, but it doesn't describe Tool's motivation. I guess I'm saying he's doing it not because he has any particular passion for the job of helping the Empire, or because he feels any particular loyalty, but because what else is he gonna do? I suppose you could say all the Imass are working on inertia by now, but Tool more than most is just fulfilling his role without any personal interest or agenda, unlike Logros. So if you're wondering what Tool's motivation is, it's more or less just going through the motions; completing his assignment.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I kinda get the feeling Tool's been doing this kind of stuff (running errands for Logros/The Empire) for a while and we enter into his story at a time of great personal upheaval and change.

[Aptorian]

I think the answer probably lies in the much quoted exchange between the Adjunct and Tool:

Quote

“Tell me, Tool, what dominates your thoughts?'
The Imass shrugged before replying.
'I think of futility, Adjunct.'
'Do all Imass think about futility?'
'No. Few think at all.'
'Why is that?'
The Imass leaned his head to one side and regarded her.
'Because Adjunct, it is futile.”

I think nothing motivates Tool. It is, with out spoiling later books, part of his characters storyline. He just does what he does because of what he is. A tool. An instrument of murder which kills what it gets pointed at.

EDIT: And now I realise I just repeated what you both just said with other words.

This post has been edited by Crustaceous Apt: 04 October 2013 - 08:03 PM

[nacht]

In this particular case, Tool was being compelled to this. (likely by Logros though this is never stated)

Quote

The Imass stared at her in silence, then replied, dully, "Adjunct, I believe I know the name of this Jaghut Tyrant. I am now beset by doubts. It should not be freed. Yet, like you, I am compelled."

After this, he becomes free and then journeys to find an answer for something.

Quote

Tool nodded. "Within this tomb, and with what we will do, my vows are ended. They will bind me no longer. Such is the residual power of this sleeping Jaghut. And for that, I am thankful."

"Why are you telling me this?"

"Adjunct, you are welcome to accompany me.
" Lorn opened her mouth, but could think of no immediate reply so shut it again.
"I ask that you consider my offer, Adjunct. I shall journey in search of an answer, and I shall find it."

This post has been edited by nacht: 04 October 2013 - 08:22 PM

[worry]

Great find. I don't think any of our answers are incompatible, they just deal with different external and internal interpretations of "motivation". Seems we covered it pretty well all in all.

[Hellmo]

Your answers have raised two new questions:

1. Why would Logros want the tyrant freed? Obviously Laseen can't command the T'lan Imass, and again it seems like freeing a tyrant would be abhorrent to him.
2. How can Logros order Tool around? I mean....there's a certain history between the two that makes the idea of Tool taking orders from Logros hard to swallow. As for Tool being compelled...by what?

Maybe I should have opened this thread in the TCG area so that spoilers could be discussed, but it seems like the topic is only relevant to GotM.

The bit nacht quoted suggests that Tool was okay with freeing the tyrant before he knew it was Raest....why would that be?

I understand that GotM was written years before the other books and thus has some inconsistencies - you won't find the word "Krussail" in any of the other books - but this is a major plot point. I'd be willing to accept that Logros can compel Tool somehow, but that leaves the issue of Logros's motivation. Unless this is addressed in one of the ICE books, which I haven't yet read. I know there are rules against spoilers, but if that's the case I wouldn't mind if someone PM'd me.

[nacht]

You could have it moved to General Topics or TCG forum if you want a fuller discussion. I think it your comments could be considered as mild spoilers :-)

At a superficial level, Logros could have have loaned Tool without knowing exactly what would be asked of him.

The Empire's goal of freeing Raest is to pit him against Anomander. Their goal is not to outright free Raest out of benevolence. So it is not really against the Imass vow. The preferred outcome was that Raest is destroyed, Anomander is weakened, the cabal is taken out and the Malazans would move in. In the case that Anomander died and Raest survived, they would move against Raest. They actually did not know how powerful Raest was.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Its hard to discuss tools motivations without encroaching into later books, tho. For GOTM, its cuz who Tool is working for sees the Empire as an ally and lends Tool to the Malazans and the Adjunct.

[Hellmo]

nacht, on 04 October 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

At a superficial level, Logros could have have loaned Tool without knowing exactly what would be asked of him.

The Empire's goal of freeing Raest is to pit him against Anomander. Their goal is not to outright free Raest out of benevolence. So it is not really against the Imass vow. The preferred outcome was that Raest is destroyed, Anomander is weakened, the cabal is taken out and the Malazans would move in. In the case that Anomander died and Raest survived, they would move against Raest. They actually did not know how powerful Raest was.

Ah, good point. That would explain why Tool suddenly got cold feet when he realized it was Raest. I'm still not sure I'm satisfied as to why Tool was working for the Empress, but I guess he was a pretty different guy back then...I can live with this explanation. Thanks.

[nacht]

You do have a point. It could very well be an inconsistency but establishing that would require a big discussion spanning the whole series and SE could always clear it up in some clever way in the future :-)
What I actually find strange is that the T'Lan Imass think and feel so much after so long. Clearly they have "some" free will even though they are operating under a Geas/Compulsion (to exterminate the Jaghut) and Tool seems to have the greatest freedom.

This is kinda funny.

Quote

."Adjunct, you are welcome to accompany me.
" Lorn opened her mouth, but could think of no immediate reply so shut it again.

Maybe Tool was hitting on her :-)

This post has been edited by nacht: 11 October 2013 - 08:10 PM

[Hellmo]

Are the T'lan Imass actually under a geas to destroy the Jaghut? What are you basing that on? It would certainly make a lot of sense, but if it says that somewhere in the books I completely missed it.

[Daeg]

Sometimes in serving..you do what you do not want to do...tool was already apart from the logros clan...he did as asked because it was useless not to...but it is my suspicion that he was willing to be undone in an attempt to stop raest once released...although I also suspect that he knew more of lorn's intentions than he let on...the only surprise was the actual identity

[Daeg]

No geas...only absolute dedication

[clothesnew]

The T'lan Imass still provide the kingdom at this factor it seems. Most likely the relationship between Emperor Kelanved and the T'lan Imass is still powerful enough that his will is enforced upon them. Maybe he's basically requested them to provide the kingdom or something like that.

[Hellmo]

That explanation doesn't hold water. If the Logros were still serving Laseen she would have just steamrolled the Crimson Guard and taken all of Genabackis in a few years. Aside from that, Kellanved hates Laseen and wants some sort of retribution. Besides, Kellanved no longer commands the T'lan Imass ever since Laseen took power.

[K'chain Paladin]

For the lolz.

Every time I listen to epic music and think about what a Gardens movie would be like, I always end up picturing changing the ending to have Tool and the Jaghut Tyrant fight in a bad-ass battle along the lakefront in Darujhistan, similar to the duel between Dumbledore and Voldemort in the Order of the Phoenix film adaptation. Then you could change Tool to having a motivation of wanting to release Raest for the sole purpose of killing him, for killing his family or some other token notion of revenge.

Probably not going to be well received by the hardcore fans of the series but, Tool is my favorite character besides Karsa Orlong, so I would just make a movie about those two if I had all the moneys.