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Shadowthrone, Cotillion, Master Plan When did it start? - spoilers for the whole series Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Ruthan Good 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:05 AM

OK, we "know" that our favourite dynamic homicidal duo (DHD from now on) wanted Kaminsod's release in order to

1) Deprive some of the other gods of their power source, thus levelling the playing field for the gods (as opposed to just crafty)
2) Save the world from Forkrul Assail's douchebaggery and also from the Kaminsod's followers coming down on Wu and Armageddoning it

3) What passes for an altruistic bone in Kell


4) One more, though more Tavore than Kell - stick up to the man (in effect. It's an extreme oversimplification, and I will revisit Tavore in a separate topic)

Now we were told that the DHD were present at the last chaining, after which this "plan" may have been conceived, and some time late ST had a chat with Kaminsod. What I'm not sure is if they were mortal then, or after the Ascension?? One indicator may be Dassem and his daughter. We know that he disappeared/"died" shortly before Kell and Dancer's own "death", the first time Malazans got screwed in Y'Ghatan (I would love to read that battle). We know that Dassem's daughter died at the last chaining. From the poem in GOTM we know that Dessembrae was at a chaining. Is this all the same chaining?


My main point is - did the two of them know about this whole shedazzle (technical term) before they ascended, and if so, did they jump up into the pantheon knowing all about this. The question is not one of 'what for', but more of a 'when' and 'why' i.e. when did they discover and what caused them to decide to do this shebang (another techincal term). I hope I am making this whole thing clear.


A lot of ST and Cots motivations are on the topic btw:
http://forum.malazan...showtopic=21349


This post has been edited by Ruthan Good: 28 November 2012 - 01:06 AM

I don't have time to consider things I have to consider.
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#2 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:02 AM

View PostRuthan Good, on 28 November 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

OK, we "know" that our favourite dynamic homicidal duo (DHD from now on) wanted Kaminsod's release in order to

1) Deprive some of the other gods of their power source, thus levelling the playing field for the gods (as opposed to just crafty)
2) Save the world from Forkrul Assail's douchebaggery and also from the Kaminsod's followers coming down on Wu and Armageddoning it

3) What passes for an altruistic bone in Kell


4) One more, though more Tavore than Kell - stick up to the man (in effect. It's an extreme oversimplification, and I will revisit Tavore in a separate topic)

Now we were told that the DHD were present at the last chaining, after which this "plan" may have been conceived, and some time late ST had a chat with Kaminsod. What I'm not sure is if they were mortal then, or after the Ascension?? One indicator may be Dassem and his daughter. We know that he disappeared/"died" shortly before Kell and Dancer's own "death", the first time Malazans got screwed in Y'Ghatan (I would love to read that battle). We know that Dassem's daughter died at the last chaining. From the poem in GOTM we know that Dessembrae was at a chaining. Is this all the same chaining?


My main point is - did the two of them know about this whole shedazzle (technical term) before they ascended, and if so, did they jump up into the pantheon knowing all about this. The question is not one of 'what for', but more of a 'when' and 'why' i.e. when did they discover and what caused them to decide to do this shebang (another techincal term). I hope I am making this whole thing clear.


A lot of ST and Cots motivations are on the topic btw:
http://forum.malazan...showtopic=21349




Saying they were or were not Ascended at that point would imply that there is some date where you can say after that day ST&C were Ascended but before that date they were not. I don't really see it as such - there's no threshold of Ascension. At least not for everyone.

However, they were not yet Shadowthrone and The Rope yet - the latest Chaining was the same one Dassem attended and where his daughter was abused. From NoK, of we know that The Return of Kellanved and Dancer was after Dassem supposedly died at the siege of Y'Ghatan, which in turn NoK tells us was after the Chaining.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling (maybe she should change her name to Sinn).
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#3 User is offline   High Fist 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:00 AM

Not only can we gather some sort of *timeline from NoK (Chaining/Stuff with Dassem's Daughter -> Dassem's "death" -> Kel/Dan's "death's"), we also
get to read some of the Y'Ghatan battle that you mentioned.

*Please note that any and all supposed timelines are not important in the Malazverse.
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#4 User is offline   Ruthan Good 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:48 PM

View PostD, on 28 November 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

Saying they were or were not Ascended at that point would imply that there is some date where you can say after that day ST&C were Ascended but before that date they were not. I don't really see it as such - there's no threshold of Ascension. At least not for everyone.

However, they were not yet Shadowthrone and The Rope yet - the latest Chaining was the same one Dassem attended and where his daughter was abused. From NoK, of we know that The Return of Kellanved and Dancer was after Dassem supposedly died at the siege of Y'Ghatan, which in turn NoK tells us was after the Chaining.


You see, I always thought that there was in fact a clear time point where Kell and Dancer became ST and Cots, which was pretty much right after their "deaths", and that was them ascending. I need to reread bits of NoK I think...

View PostHigh Fist, on 28 November 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

Not only can we gather some sort of *timeline from NoK (Chaining/Stuff with Dassem's Daughter -> Dassem's "death" -> Kel/Dan's "death's"), we also
get to read some of the Y'Ghatan battle that you mentioned.

*Please note that any and all supposed timelines are not important in the Malazverse.


I am happy (or at least cheerfully resigned) with that )). However, the point at which the DHD (I am gonna keep using this) decide to free Kaminsod is important, because that can allow an idea of how their plans started.
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#5 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:57 PM

You're misunderstanding. There was a specific point at which Kell and Dancer became ST and Cots, and that's when they take up the Throne of Shadow. That is not necessarily a 1-to-1 correlation with them becoming Ascendants, which seems to have been a long process that started with their living in the Deadhouse a century or so ago.
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#6 User is offline   Ruthan Good 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:23 PM

Ah. Well. I need to go and rethink my life I think. I suppose that agrees with some of the Old Guard achieving varying levels of ascension while living at the Deadhouse for a while since they used that as a base to take down Mock and beyond, i.e. Nok, the napans, maybe Dassem and the others too. And so then it makes sense as the DHD were travelling around the Azath and gathering knowledge and power they approached closer and closer to it. And i suppose with becoming ST and Cots they have just reached the next stage, most likely not the last stage as they continue to capitalise on what happened with the rest of the gods losing the juicebox that was Kaminsod. I guess what I wanted to know was at which point did the two stop just being crafty buggers wanting to form the best human empire ever (so that ST's mum would approve of him) and begin moving in on the ascendancy path.

I guess they settled in Malaz, then moved to the Deadhouse, they still had earthly designs and initially made out to accomplish them, but in parallel they began to slowly discover things about the Azath and all that shedongle (another technical term). In their travels they witnessed a chaining, among other things, and realised that many of the younger ascendants were douches.

I can live with that.
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#7 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:38 PM

Yup, that's basically it! Also, from GotM we know they still had some mundane issues in mind like revenge on Laseen. So even upon reaching actual godhood they still aren't done "growing". I might even suggest that "recruiting" Tavore to their mission did count as a kind of revenge against Laseen, as per her reaction in The Bonehunters. Not quite so brute force as their initial idea in GotM, obviously, but maybe worse for Laseen in the long run.
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#8 User is offline   Ruthan Good 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:42 PM

With you on Laseen thing.

But re Tavore, I'm not fully convinced (I am gonna do a separate topic on that). There is no denying that the DHD and Tavore had the same general goal, but did they actually recruit her? Did she work for them? It's one thing that she's a Talon (or at least wears their thingie ? ) but was she actually working for them?
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#9 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:04 PM

Well, I wouldn't call it a traditional employer/employee relationship.
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#10 User is offline   Ruthan Good 

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:16 PM

No benefits, holiday, sick leave, overtime pay... or any pay. All you get is the tremendous satisfaction from your job.
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#11 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:54 AM

i think another interesting question is at what point did tavore realize what ST and Cot were trying to do? since kellenved is freaking out to ganoes paran in the beginning of the last book, i'm guessing that he didn't approach her as a young woman, since he'd have a better idea of what she's like. the fact he doesn't makes me think that tavore was the one doing all the mental leg-work.
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#12 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:10 PM

View PostRuthan Good, on 28 November 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

Ah. Well. I need to go and rethink my life I think. I suppose that agrees with some of the Old Guard achieving varying levels of ascension while living at the Deadhouse for a while since they used that as a base to take down Mock and beyond, i.e. Nok, the napans, maybe Dassem and the others too. And so then it makes sense as the DHD were travelling around the Azath and gathering knowledge and power they approached closer and closer to it. And i suppose with becoming ST and Cots they have just reached the next stage, most likely not the last stage as they continue to capitalise on what happened with the rest of the gods losing the juicebox that was Kaminsod. I guess what I wanted to know was at which point did the two stop just being crafty buggers wanting to form the best human empire ever (so that ST's mum would approve of him) and begin moving in on the ascendancy path.

I guess they settled in Malaz, then moved to the Deadhouse, they still had earthly designs and initially made out to accomplish them, but in parallel they began to slowly discover things about the Azath and all that shedongle (another technical term). In their travels they witnessed a chaining, among other things, and realised that many of the younger ascendants were douches.

I can live with that.


I will flip it the other way and say that at the time after Kellanved/Ammanas and Dancer/Cotillion left the empire and before Returning to become Shadowthrone and The Rope, they were also young ascendants and douches. Kellanved was the sort of mage-emperor who buried thousands of his own soldiers just to strike at the Crimson Guard. Dancer teleported into people's inner chambers to assassinate them for a living. These guys were probably not nice people. And thus when we see them a few years after they have claimed the Shadow Warren they are still thinking about petty revenge on Laseen. That doesn't mean they weren't also plotting to usurp the power source of the other gods at the same time, but it was probably for petty reasons, too.

Over the course of the series these two do change - they regain their humanity. Not in the mortal sense but in the emphatic sense. By the end of it they are releasing the Crippled God for compassion, not for vengefulness. Ammanas will always be manipulative and deceitful, and Cotillion will always be coldly pragmatic, but it is still a big shift in character for them across the 10 novels.


(and yeah I'm rephrasing a bunch of what SE has discussed in interviews with this post)

View PostSinisdar Toste, on 29 November 2012 - 04:54 AM, said:

i think another interesting question is at what point did tavore realize what ST and Cot were trying to do? since kellenved is freaking out to ganoes paran in the beginning of the last book, i'm guessing that he didn't approach her as a young woman, since he'd have a better idea of what she's like. the fact he doesn't makes me think that tavore was the one doing all the mental leg-work.


Well she was among the foremost (still-living) scholars of Kellanved and Dancer, but we don't know when she started studying them.

We basically know so little of Tavore's childhood and adolescence in Unta that the relationship could be almost anything and we can't really know when it began. Which is, of course, the point. And young Ganoes having been stationed at the Kanese coast but also having trained Tavore when she was younger makes it all the more adaptable to these possibilities.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 30 November 2012 - 10:11 PM

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling (maybe she should change her name to Sinn).
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