[Umback Dredd]

So I just finished TCG and this is the biggest question I still have. Shadowthrone and Cotillion have played a very long game here all building up to this moment. They've coordinated the actions of dozens of gods and mortals and moved people around like chess pieces just so everyone's in exactly the right place they need to be for this end game.

And, at the end of the day, what's the point? What exactly did they get out of this? Saving the world? That doesn't really seem like enough of a motivation for them to go to such lengths. After putting all this in motion, I don't really understand what they get out of it. (Unless of course this isn't really the end game at all and there's more to follow in their grand plan of awesomeness.)

Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

[Cyphon]

Well the warrens/world/worshippers aren't destroyed.

Plus I expect they've got some benefits that are written about in this novel. Wait for the Daruhistan novel I would guess. Erikson left as in arrived to the series, without explaining a whole lot.

[Ceda Cicero]

Umback Dredd, on 30 March 2011 - 03:25 PM, said:

So I just finished TCG and this is the biggest question I still have. Shadowthrone and Cotillion have played a very long game here all building up to this moment. They've coordinated the actions of dozens of gods and mortals and moved people around like chess pieces just so everyone's in exactly the right place they need to be for this end game.

And, at the end of the day, what's the point? What exactly did they get out of this? Saving the world? That doesn't really seem like enough of a motivation for them to go to such lengths. After putting all this in motion, I don't really understand what they get out of it. (Unless of course this isn't really the end game at all and there's more to follow in their grand plan of awesomeness.)

Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

Well, first off, it seems to me that their end game hasn't been fully revealed yet. ICE likes to treat with ST and Cots and I suspect we'll see them playing similar, all-encompassing roles in his books somewhere along the way. I for one hope that at least their knowledge of/possible mastery over the Azath will come into play in ICE novels.

In terms of the events in tCG, though, I think it's Cotillion who says somewhere that their whole intention, originally, was to secure their place in the pantheon. They are "young" gods with limited dominance over a very, very old and very broken realm. Their direct competitors and peers, the other young gods, seem to draw a substantial portion of their power from the Crippled God. So their solution? Pull the rug out from beneath them by removing that source of power. In the process they conclude that the best way to do this is to send the chap back home, and as a bonus, it's also the most humane.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Neocount Cicero, on 30 March 2011 - 03:35 PM, said:

Umback Dredd, on 30 March 2011 - 03:25 PM, said:

So I just finished TCG and this is the biggest question I still have. Shadowthrone and Cotillion have played a very long game here all building up to this moment. They've coordinated the actions of dozens of gods and mortals and moved people around like chess pieces just so everyone's in exactly the right place they need to be for this end game.

And, at the end of the day, what's the point? What exactly did they get out of this? Saving the world? That doesn't really seem like enough of a motivation for them to go to such lengths. After putting all this in motion, I don't really understand what they get out of it. (Unless of course this isn't really the end game at all and there's more to follow in their grand plan of awesomeness.)

Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

Well, first off, it seems to me that their end game hasn't been fully revealed yet. ICE likes to treat with ST and Cots and I suspect we'll see them playing similar, all-encompassing roles in his books somewhere along the way. I for one hope that at least their knowledge of/possible mastery over the Azath will come into play in ICE novels.

In terms of the events in tCG, though, I think it's Cotillion who says somewhere that their whole intention, originally, was to secure their place in the pantheon. They are "young" gods with limited dominance over a very, very old and very broken realm. Their direct competitors and peers, the other young gods, seem to draw a substantial portion of their power from the Crippled God. So their solution? Pull the rug out from beneath them by removing that source of power. In the process they conclude that the best way to do this is to send the chap back home, and as a bonus, it's also the most humane.

and precludes their planet from being pulverized by Jade Statues

[Ceda Cicero]

Sinisdar Toste, on 30 March 2011 - 06:35 PM, said:

Neocount Cicero, on 30 March 2011 - 03:35 PM, said:

Umback Dredd, on 30 March 2011 - 03:25 PM, said:

So I just finished TCG and this is the biggest question I still have. Shadowthrone and Cotillion have played a very long game here all building up to this moment. They've coordinated the actions of dozens of gods and mortals and moved people around like chess pieces just so everyone's in exactly the right place they need to be for this end game.

And, at the end of the day, what's the point? What exactly did they get out of this? Saving the world? That doesn't really seem like enough of a motivation for them to go to such lengths. After putting all this in motion, I don't really understand what they get out of it. (Unless of course this isn't really the end game at all and there's more to follow in their grand plan of awesomeness.)

Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

Well, first off, it seems to me that their end game hasn't been fully revealed yet. ICE likes to treat with ST and Cots and I suspect we'll see them playing similar, all-encompassing roles in his books somewhere along the way. I for one hope that at least their knowledge of/possible mastery over the Azath will come into play in ICE novels.

In terms of the events in tCG, though, I think it's Cotillion who says somewhere that their whole intention, originally, was to secure their place in the pantheon. They are "young" gods with limited dominance over a very, very old and very broken realm. Their direct competitors and peers, the other young gods, seem to draw a substantial portion of their power from the Crippled God. So their solution? Pull the rug out from beneath them by removing that source of power. In the process they conclude that the best way to do this is to send the chap back home, and as a bonus, it's also the most humane.

and precludes their planet from being pulverized by Jade Statues

TOOOSTEEEE!!!! Let me have my long-winded, overly complex explanation.

[Aptorian]

Actually, and this comes from their own mouthes, their main motivation during the series (besides amassing power and knowledge) was to do something about the state of the pantheon. They saw how petty and egotistical the gods had become, how they ignored their worshippers and used the Crippled God, and the two shadow gods decided that they didn't like this one bit. So they teamed up with Rake and Hood, two other gods who had no love for their colleagues, and they destroyed the status quo. They brought out the old horrors and they forced a reckoning to come down. In the end it all went according to the two gods wishes it seems.

[Ceda Cicero]

Clockwork Apt, on 30 March 2011 - 06:45 PM, said:

Actually, and this comes from their own mouthes, their main motivation during the series (besides amassing power and knowledge) was to do something about the state of the pantheon. They saw how petty and egotistical the gods had become, how they ignored their worshippers and used the Crippled God, and the two shadow gods decided that they didn't like this one bit. So they teamed up with Rake and Hood, two other gods who had no love for their colleagues, and they destroyed the status quo. They brought out the old horrors and they forced a reckoning to come down. In the end it all went according to the two gods wishes it seems.

Very true. Really, though, none of the answers that have been given in this thread are wrong, and they aren't mutually exclusive by any stretch. With such a massive strategy, that many players, being executed over that amount of time, it makes sense that it has so many layers.

[worry]

Cots just likes having an excuse to get into women's bodies. The rest is window dressing.

[iRFNA]

Who would turn down a chance to take over a woman's body and sexy dance an army of lizards into submission?

[Aptorian]

worrywort, on 30 March 2011 - 08:33 PM, said:

Cots just likes having an excuse to get into women's bodies. The rest is window dressing.

I actually really enjoyed the part where Cotillion admits that he has gone soft after coming in contact with too many mortal women. I'd been complaining that he had turned into something of a wuss after BH and this sort of explained why the cold hearted killer of the past was suddenly a big cry baby.

[Gatekeeper]

They want what they have always wanted. Respect. RAFO in SW just how this applies to Shadowthrone, and also tCG. His comments on his mother are some of the best moments in the series IMHO. Respect for Dancer, well, isn't that what his whole existence has been about? Just look to the mans enemies for that answer.



-Gate


PS. I hope all that talk about wanting another novella about K&B instead of the first meeting of Dancer and Emp. Kell was all just crazy talk.

[worry]

They may not be mutually exclusive. Who knows where those two were knocking around back then?

[Gatekeeper]

That's a good point, I..uh, didn't think of that.

[Umback Dredd]

Thanks y'all, that helps clear it up some. I get the idea of securing their power in the pantheon by removing the Crippled God from play. But I don't really see a "reckoning" happening in the rest of the pantheon.

Who went down over the course of this series? D'rek, Fener, Trake, Anomander and Togg/Fanderay, who were all allies of ST and Cots, all of whom sacrificed themselves willingly (well Trake didn't, but Gruntle did, so it counts). So, all their allies died, cool. That doesn't really seem like much of a win.

Who else? Poliel, way back in TBH? Ok. Some Elder gods like Killy and Sech bit it, but really they were nonentities. Maybe I've forgotten some folks over the years, but I can't think of any other gods/ascendants who got their comeuppance. Can anyone help me out?

[Black Company]

Hood. But also remember that the gods have been feeding off of Kam for a long long time now. By taking sending him back home, they remove a big power source for alot of the gods. As things shake out, they have Nimander on the throne of Dark, who they know is an Andii of integrity; Tovis as the Queen of Shake and she's a pretty straightup gal; Tehol Beddict as Emperor of the Letherii; the Bridgeburners as the Guardians of the Gate; Itkovian as the Redeemer and he's a pretty decent fellow; Karsa as an emerging ascendant and if not an ally, at least they know what he's all about; the baby Knight of Shadows protected by Ryadd Eleis/Onos/Kilava; Menandore/Sekhul/Spultatha are all dead and they were 3 crazies on the prowl; Fant's Liosan faction is gone and 12 insane Pure FA are gone; and Olar Ethil is gone. All in a day's work. They can count on K'rul and Mael doing the right thing and having those two on your good side has to be reassuring. Also, even though the Axis turned out to be Errastas, Killmandaros and Sechul, remember that the Errant tried to compel a whole bunch of the other Elders on his side. ST and Cot must've been preparing and planning on outmaneuvering the whole Elder pantheon.

Also, the whole deal with tCG is that what started out as ST's and Cot's plan to secure themselves, with Tavore leading the way it become a mission of compassion. I'm sure that's what pulled in Anomander, and probably made K'rul and Mael alot more complacent in helping them out.

[havenophear]

Still, why the opening with Edgewalker and Cot:

"You can't win."
"That doesn't mean I have to lose!"

Seems like they won though...

[Sinisdar Toste]

havenophear, on 25 August 2011 - 11:14 PM, said:

Still, why the opening with Edgewalker and Cot:

"You can't win."
"That doesn't mean I have to lose!"

Seems like they won though...

won what? the power, the prize, the big score, it all got sucked away into a jade statue.

maybe you could say they won freedom from the CG's incessant chaos, but that was something the world had brought on itself.

[havenophear]

Sinisdar Toste, on 26 August 2011 - 12:09 AM, said:

havenophear, on 25 August 2011 - 11:14 PM, said:

Still, why the opening with Edgewalker and Cot:

"You can't win."
"That doesn't mean I have to lose!"

Seems like they won though...

won what? the power, the prize, the big score, it all got sucked away into a jade statue.

maybe you could say they won freedom from the CG's incessant chaos, but that was something the world had brought on itself.

what I meant was it seemed they were quite content at the end with what they accomplished. They "won" in terms of doing whatever it was they had set out to do. I think. It's not like we even know what they wanted to do, so we can't really know if they accomplished it.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i think it could also come down to edgewalker not truly understanding cotillion, or his motives. a little like us actually, the reader.

i think they accomplished their goals as well as they could have, and as cotillion says, they didn't really lose, but, they didn't really win either. they're back to where they started, but with a gigantic obstacle out of the way.

[Abey1245]

They saved the warrens and therefore saved themselves is my personal take on the reward for their efforts, I also think they are not quite done yet.

Kind of off-topic but does anyone else think Shadowthrone is a stick-snare now? He practically admits it himself in TCG... (I feel it in my bones (cotillion: I didn't know you had any...) My sticks, then. I feel it in my sticks!) when they talk about how they believe Tavore & co will make it across the glass desert.