[Brujah]

By popular demand, another pairing in dispute.
Settle it.
Consider who would win a best of X series of battles if you need.

I'm unsure as to the final shape this info will become. But I remember first getting into the series, and often wondering how some of these main characters compared on the larger, cosmic scale of power in relation to each other.
I guess I'd like to see something that included the more important characters to the storyline. Something to gauge or compare these powerful beings to. It doesn't have to be, probably can't be, all inclusive.
But the inclusion of the more written about characters would be the focus.
Along with this would be information about the holds and warrens, including how they're connected. And even something connecting each character to his/her hold/warren/aspect.
I would have enjoyed having something like that when I was reading. And of course the issue of spoilers will have to be addressed.
Anyway, thanks for your patience as I attempt to mold something from the collective opinions, likes, and dislikes of our beloved community.

This post has been edited by Brujah: 29 June 2012 - 05:59 AM

[Brujah]

I think this is one of the toughest pairings, at least for me.
Karsa and QB. I struggle to decide which is my favorite.
As for if they fought, how would it go?
Who would win, and how?
Any good thoughts ?

Would Karsa have immunity to some, all, or any of Bens magic?
Would QB be able to survive at all if his first assault failed to stop Karsa?
If Karsa was to get close enough would he be able to take Ben?

[Tehol the Only]

No one would win because the excess of badassery would melt the reader's eyes before the fight is over.

[Sinisdar Toste]

and then we'd reach a badass event horizon, and the universe would collapse into a badass singularity.

in this specific instance, i have to say that unless quick finally reveals his soletaken form, karsa's gonna just cut through whatever is thrown at him. the younger warrens? otataral in the blood. elder warrens? Karsa is a warren. of course, quick would never fight karsa, he'd trick him into fighting somebody even bigger! like kilmandaros or a d'ivers insect of some kind.

[Kanese S's]

Neither of them are gods.

Between the two, I'd say Quick Ben just because he's always so clever. Also, the dude faced down Icarium. Though it would probably end up a draw with Ben not really feeling like engaging in pointless battle with Karsa and so making a quick exit.

[Binder of Demons]

I'd go for QUICK BEN purely because he'd be wise enough to not make it a contest of physical strength or martial skill. The question remains how strong Quick Ben would be in a single one-on-one fight. I don't think we've yet seen the full extent of his powers.

But the main reason I'd go for Quick Ben over Karsa is how he has dealt with other magical beings in the past (for these purposes I'm lumping Karsa's magical resistance in here as it is the only way he could survive a direct assault by QB). Quick Ben has often chosen to use his magical ability to manipulate the environment rather than the person directly which is a bitch to deal with (opening holes in the ground, the anti-gravity rockslide vs Dragons)

Much as I love Karsa and his stubborn nature, I'm going with the guile of QB here.

[Binder of Demons]

The issue with this type of poll though, is how much they change over the course of the series. QB changes almost exponentially in terms of what we see him doing directly. And while Karsa does most of his powering-up in a single book (HoC) he is still maturing and getting stronger as the series progresses.

Consider the TOR re-read going on at the moment which has just finished THE BONEHUNTERS. What would a person's opinion of characters like APSALAR, KALAM, TRULL, PARAN, ICARIUM and QUICK BEN be both before and after just this book. Are they stronger or weaker than you thought?

Would you also include ICE's books? Since TEMPER is one of my favourite characters, and has done some amazing things but only gets a passing mention in Erikson's books (I know he's not on KARSA or QUICK BEN'S level, just an example though).


The risk of spoilers from a poll like this is great unless you specify a time period or make it based on our understanding of characters after the end of a particular book.

This isn't meant as a criticism, just an FYI since there is nothing more frustrating than having a major plot point spoiled by people casually mentioning events from later books. And there are some MAJOR events coming.

Anyway, I love these polls, so keep 'em coming.

[Brujah]

I really like reading you guys opinions. I even seem to sway slightly back and forth between characters as I read down through the thread. And that's exactly what I'm looking for.

Like Binder pointed out, there's too many variables to nail anything down definitively, and I realize the poll itself is also inherently flawed and restricting in itself, but I do think I can make good use of these type of results. Be patient. It's still going to have to evolve before I can get even close to pulling it all together into something constructive. I would like to give his timeline inquiry some thought. I would suggest going with each characters power as of their end, or the end of the series. Because what I really want is the opinions of those who have read the entire series. The end product will be there to assist readers as they traverse the books. Let's face it. Some people don't stick with the books because they get frustrated and feel lost. Want proof? Just check out Malazan discussion threads from other books sites. The most common complaint is that people seem to think its too complicated.

However I do have some ideas on an ATTEMPT at possibly being able to assign a numeric value to characters based on both new theories and ones alrdy created and used by others. Now take this with a healthy dose of salt, but initial possible examples could assign collective value from numerous details from the books. One example would take into account how other powerful characters view the current. Both ST and Cotillon admit in the series that Dassem would have killed them if he had thought they had anything to do with the sinking of his ship. Value could accumulate and come from the result of the polls.(the poll results could weigh in at 50 percent of the total value or more or less). Some value could come from estimate age and experience, having temples and/or worshippers, relevancy, accomplishments, etc.

Like I've said, its just an idea in infancy they may or may not come to fruition. Let's at least try to have some fun with it, while engaging in interesting discussions. I for one find these types of discussions by far the most entertaining. I love reading others thoughts on who would win, or who is more powerful and why. Because if you think about it, that person has technically already assigned relative power values based on his or her own personal experience from reading the series. I believe with enough opinions I can look for similarities and common denominators. If not, nothing lost but some time voting and discussing an interesting subject.

I've looked at D'reks brilliant structure in the book comparison thread, and his techniques for assigning value. The credit for me finding his previous works is credited to Aptorius. Great idea. Just keep giving opinions and the reasons why you have them. Use specific examples of text or scenes of dialogues from the series as much as possible. In the end, if there's not enough interest ill let it go and salvage what I can for a different smaller project. And don't worry about differences of opinions. It's not going to end up being anything polarizing or the cause of debate and confusion. I won't let of manifest in any way that hinders or misinforms.

[Z'ress]

when Karsa go beat by an forkrul assail. I know its a simple argument but if Quick trumps frokrul and Forkrul trumps Karsa then thats the answer.

[Brujah]

Not much debate, and with only 18 votes, we have Quick Ben ranking ABOVE Karsa.

Consider this pairing closed, but feel free to still vote.

[Luzburg]

Karsa is immune to magic and also beats down Deragoth for fun... I think Quick Ben fanoyism won this lol.

[the broken]

Well, If Quick just blasted with his warrens, Karsa. But if he did something simple like opening a hole in the ground or making a mountainside collapse, Quick.

[Dolmen 2.0]

QB doesn't have to attack Karsa directly. Karsa relies on a solid ground beneath him and clear space to swing his sword as well as an easily visible target. Quick is smart enough and versatile enough to deny him the conditions Karsa would need to beat an opponent. Quick ben can also do things like drop rocks on karsa or flood him etc.

I really can't see one of the smartest characters in the books wasting time attacking karsa directly. Karsas best and brightest chance will be an upfront onslaught by surprise (like the Icarium resolution) giving QB little or no time to establish just how impervious Karsa is to warrens. Karsa tends to win much of his battles because he is so grossly underestimated. This fight would be won by QBs ability or lack there of to see exactly what Karsa is vs karsas ability to quickly close on QB and end things in one blow.

This post has been edited by Dolmen+: 02 September 2012 - 02:45 PM

[Kanese S's]

Luzburg, on 02 September 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

Karsa is immune to magic and also beats down Deragoth for fun... I think Quick Ben fanoyism won this lol.

Yeah, but he's not immune to the kind of manipulation of the environment that Quick Ben does with magic. After finding out that Karsa can't really be hurt with sorcery itself, Quick Ben would probably just drop a big rock on Orlong or open a hole under him and toss a cusser in.

[suqleg]

I figure Karsa would end up winning by sheer unpredictability, Quick would probably have it all planned out and then just as it is about to unravel Karsa takes a step to the left and we hear a muttered curse followed by a pop which was once QB's head.

[Vaddon Ra]

Quick ran away from Karsa after he watched him curb stomp the deragoth.... however he does get a level up after TBH so perhaps once his high magery is fully unvieled he would easy beat Karsa.... however unless Quick outs and says "hey I am using elder warrens" he may just knock him back and then get a sword in the face.... Stubbornness honed into a weapon FTW... so I'm voting for Karsa

[Kanese S's]

Quick Ben is also smart enough not to seek out a fight when it's not necessary.

[Aptorian]

This is how the fight goes.

Quick Ben launches a big old whammy on Karsa. Nothing happens.

Quick Ben immediatly adjusts to this situation and opens a hole under Karsa like he did with Kallor.

It is 50 meters deep.

Quick Ben closes the hole.

Quick Ben has won.

EARTHTALITY!

This post has been edited by Crustaceous Apt: 08 September 2013 - 03:19 PM

[theocean]

Quick Ben to me is so frustrating... Hes a great character but i really have no clue what the depth of his power is, he seems able to rise to any challenge he actually has to deal with but seems to never have faith in what he could do... Probably my two favorite characters and im going to pick the Quick one.

[king in chains]

theocean, on 29 October 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

Quick Ben to me is so frustrating... Hes a great character but i really have no clue what the depth of his power is, he seems able to rise to any challenge he actually has to deal with but seems to never have faith in what he could do... Probably my two favorite characters and im going to pick the Quick one.