[Weave]

During the first 3 books, the Rebellion, Raraku, the Whirlwind Goddess, is built up as this massive massive bloodbath, Empire toppling world changing event.Yet the actual battle?
Empire forces decimate the rebellion army, huge swathes just outclassed and destroyed.
While their upper echelons cave inwards from infighting, or are easily despatched by skilled Malaz(or other) infiltrators on the night their defences should be highest.
I know the Goddes was anarchy aligned and indeed embodied by a confused and inexperienced girl, but that can't explain just the utter failure and and impact-less nature of the whole rebellion that had 3 books and hundreds of years of hype.

[HoosierDaddy]

It's hard to fight ghosts.

[D'rek]

A lot of people died regardless of the final battle. Remember the towns Fiddler, Crokus and Apsalar ride through in DG? That, all over the continent = bloodbath.

[HoosierDaddy]

They also destroyed the Malazan presence on the entire sub-continent, outside of Aren. Such that they had to re-invade.

I'll admit that Shaik wasn't the greatest of generals, though, so after the rebellion (which succeeded), not much else happened.

This post has been edited by H.D.: 09 August 2010 - 10:07 PM

[Defiance]

I dunno, there wasn't much Whirlwhind build up in GotM and MoI. Sure, it was mentioned, but offhandedly. I enjoyed the actual Rebellion, and the disappointment I felt at the end was because the Bonehunters didn't get to fight. I'll reserve judgment on the ghost thing until I finish my reread, but I do think it was built up to (just so subtly that noticing it the first time through is next to impossible). HoC has my least favorite ending, despite having some nice memorable parts (Karsa castrating Bidithal, Kalam and Cotillion fighting together). One thing with Erikson is you rarely get what you expect, which is part of why I love him so much (in fact, the only thing he doesn't do well is romance).

A big theme in the books is ancient powers think they're hot shit, but then mortals (or just newer powers in general) come along and put them in their place.

[Sinisdar Toste]

well dryjhna had gotten what she wanted, which was blood spilled in her name. the bloodbath covered the entire continent and once the plague came along the whole place was basically depopulated. how is that impact-less in any sense? how is that anything but an apocalypse?

correct me if i'm wrong but aren't you just disappointed by the manner of the final showdown? your expectations of a big bloody battle where the malazans triumph over a numerically superior and better placed enemy weren't met, right? SE does this all the time. everything is supposedly pointed toward one result, then bam! the real conclusion comes outta left field, leaving you reeling.

i loved this conclusion, because it had one of my all-time favourite fantasy fights: karsa vs. the deragoth

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 09 August 2010 - 11:12 PM

[worry]

Well, there's no such thing as "Bonehunters" in this book...so naturally they would not be involved in a fight. In addition, I'm not sure there's a plague in House of Chains either, unless my memory is faulty (distinctly possible). What are you guys talking about?

[Mott]

I always saw HoC as the start of the Bonehunters, it's when they first take up the bones in an attempt to 'turn the omen' that Grub I think, unintentionally (or possibly not now that I think about it) started. But I see what you mean, I'm not sure they formally called themselves that till after Y'Ghatan.

Quite depressing how i'm already forgetting these details when I only read the book at the start of the year. Time for a re-read.

The ending to HoC sometimes seems quite anti-climatic, especially where the Bonehunters are involved but I think it was a really good balance to MoI which has the big, earth shattering battles covered. I agree with Defiance and Sinisdar Toste, it was subverting expectations, I was so sure there was going to be a bloody showdown and then was quite thrown when the ghosts turned up and then when sha'ik was so easily killed. In a good way though, made it far more interesting.

As for impact, the Chain of Dogs alone, which was a direct result of the rebellion, has a massive effect on the rest of the series. And by HoC you don't get to see the full ripple effect of the rebellions but it does have repercussions in other books. I mean the scene with those children on spikes alone was enough to horrify me in DhG never mind anything else.

[worry]

Ah I see. I agree with you about the rebellion having further impact after HoC, but those things are beyond the scope of this forum so I'll leave it at that. Perhaps even mild talk of BHs and plagues etc. are too much. I also agree with you that the impact of the rebellion in DH and HoC had enough horror that avoiding the big battle was a smart, surprising move on SE's part.

[Tatterdemalion]

 Defiance, on 09 August 2010 - 11:05 PM, said:

A big theme in the books is ancient powers think they're hot shit, but then mortals (or just newer powers in general) come along and put them in their place.

This is key.

I agree, Weave, to a certain extent. I think the distinction is in the Rebellion vs. the Whirlwind Apocalypse. The rebellion was a bloodbath that was epic and catastrophic, having great consequence. It's all Deadhouse Gates. Then there's the army of the Apocalypse and Sha'ik reborn (an accident, imo, picking Felisin), which is House of Chains. And yes, it gets BITCH-SLAPPED. So I can understand - it makes the conclusion a tad less epic than, say, Coral or somewhere else. But at the same time, I never really ever felt like it was going to win. Did you? With Korbolo Dom? Kamist Reloe? A bunch of bickering mages recently introduced? Besides Toblakai, whom we quickly learn has NO alligence, the Whirlwind was a lot of pomp. Now, when you remember Defiance's quote above, suddenly this all fits in well.

I think one of the reason's the end can feel a bit less epic than other books is because of this:

Gardens: when Raest dies, you feel like they really pulled down a titan power. You also like Lorn.
Deadhouse: when Coltaine dies, you REALLY feel punched in the gut because you love him.
Memories: when Whiskeyjack dies... Uh, yeah. Itkovian... so much.
House of Chains: when Sha'ik dies... who cares? We know nothing about her, really. Felisin prior to transformation is barely left, peaks out occasionally. Sha'ik elder holds no connections to the reader. Even Felision PRE Sha'ik is hardly a sympathetic character. I always couldn't stand her (though I really think Erikson did a great job writing her, on my second read-through). But yeah - none of the deaths MATTER in House of Chains. Febryl, Bidithal, Kamist, some witches, Ranal... ? All chumps, in truth.

So I think there's your answer, maybe.

[Primateus]

Spoiler

I kinda thought that the bridgeburners returning to their birthplace after they died to annihilate an enemy was pretty awesome

But yes, in some respects, concerning the, was it the 14th?, was a bit anti-climactic.

But yes, many of the deaths in HoC seemed kinda irrelevant compared to the deaths of Whiskeyjack, Raest and most certainly Coltaine.

[Kanubis]

One thing I only really noticed on my 2nd reread of HoC is that it's mentioned quite early in the book that for the Tanno Spiritwalker's song to 'activate' a Bridgeburner had to return to Raraku.  I think that maybe a sharper person would enjoy the ensuing suspense as they wait to see how the song manifests when Fid/Kalam get there.

[foolio]

I dont think Dryjhna is really capable of maintaning momentum. Once the innitial rebelion wass successful, things inevitably will fall apart. She was surrounded by dissloyal vipers, thugs, and scumbags. Preying on hatred, mass murder, and anarchy is something doomed to unravel to a degree. Thats not to say that it cant go on forever, but you would think the powers would change. Also there were too many chefs the kitchen, so to speak, for long term wirlwind stability.


And I Sinisdar I think you definately pegged me to a degree with this:

Quote

correct me if i'm wrong but aren't you just disappointed by the manner of the final showdown? your expectations of a big bloody battle where the malazans triumph over a numerically superior and better placed enemy weren't met, right? SE does this all the time. everything is supposedly pointed toward one result, then bam! the real conclusion comes outta left field, leaving you reeling.

[Use Of Weapons]

My feeling is that this was partly due to SE's understanding that any rebellion, once it gets a taste of success, starts to destroy itself from internal tensions. This was the case with every real-world rebellion: witness the French Revolution. And we could see the seeds of tension in the Whirlwind as early as Kalam's interaction with Mebra, and certainly this would have been exacerbated by the Chain of Dogs.

[Weave]

Some fabulous insight and arguments here guys, though I think my use of "rebellion" was poor, as that, as has been pointed out to me was very successful.
My disappointment was with Raraku and the Goddess, I mean in DHG there's all these soletaken and D'ivers converging... where? What happens? There's an Aptorian demon from Shadowthrone:shocking: that The Goddess has enslaved and made her own... there's just these calls of immense power...
But then as said:

 Tatterdemalion, on 10 August 2010 - 01:30 AM, said:

But at the same time, I never really ever felt like it was going to win. Did you? With Korbolo Dom? Kamist Reloe? A bunch of bickering mages recently introduced?

No, in HoC I never felt they were going to win for those reasons, why was this ancient power so small minded to accept all this blatant... patheticness? The new mages jsut seemed plot devices introduced to show the bickering and weak command structure....
I guess really it's SE being very pragmatic if you preach anarchy and rebellion, then all you can expect is the same. 7 Cities turned on Malazan, then they turned on each other, lies beget deceit, and once you've gone down that path once, it becomes acceptable.
And of course she's killed and replaced by a young girl, which I guess is a hammer blow in The Empires favour and would explain all the tactical naivety and inexperienced leadership.
Oh ho hum, turns out the failure was pretty realistic.

This post has been edited by Weave: 10 August 2010 - 06:57 PM

[Tatterdemalion]

I'll add quickly that this also flows with the integrity of the Malazan Empire - though they are conquerors, the conquered are often better off under their benevolent rule than under the squabbling of those there prior. 7 Cities is a good example - not to mention the events of Return of the Crimson Guard.

I think your point, Weave, might best be explained as a distinct difference between books 2 and 4. Though two contained the events of the rebellion (and not the apocalypse) they DID IMPLY and act as PORTENDS of the looming apocalypse - and made the apocalypse out to be a thing of greater power than, perhaps, it was. Like you said: she could ensnare demons, etc. Then in HoC it seems like a collection of termites struggling to be the first to die - thus a feeling of let down IF in DG you were really pumped for something cataclysmic.

Especially consider this while comparing the books themselves. Gardens doesn't mention the Pannion Domin MUCH (it does, but briefly - just as something scary to the south east) but then in Memories the Pannion Domin are crazy-scary and viciously brutal - killing numerous loved characters while having "few" powerful figures in their midst.

Now consider DG and it's greater build up to the apocalypse (compared to the build up to Black Corel in GotM) and HoC and the apocalypse finale seem pale by comparison to Black Coral despite having MORE build up and seemingly greater powers/characters at play. Kind of like if in the morning before Black Coral some ghosts killed all the K'Chain Che'Malle.

The key to enjoying it is in how its fall-out affects future books and in proving that not everything ends will a huge massacre and dead heroes, I suppose.

[D'rek]

It's funny that the newer-powers-defeating-old-stuff argument was brought up here as this is the one very clear case that I find is the very opposite. The old Sha'ik kept her high-mages in line and sent her armies scouring across the sub-continent. The new Sha'ik couldn't control her bickering staff and pulled the entire army back to Raraku, followed by having her best general make a *defensive* strategy in Raraku when he'd just conquered the entire sub-continent minus Aren with brutal efficiency. New Sha'ik wasted her mages, wasted Korbolo Dom and wound up getting her and her goddess killed without the Malazans lifting a finger. Old Sha'ik may not have had it in her to defeat Tavore and the 14th, but she would've done a hell of a better job trying.

[Weave]

 Tatterdemalion, on 10 August 2010 - 07:35 PM, said:

I'll add quickly that this also flows with the integrity of the Malazan Empire - though they are conquerors, the conquered are often better off under their benevolent rule than under the squabbling of those there prior. 7 Cities is a good example - not to mention the events of Return of the Crimson Guard.

I think your point, Weave, might best be explained as a distinct difference between books 2 and 4. Though two contained the events of the rebellion (and not the apocalypse) they DID IMPLY and act as PORTENDS of the looming apocalypse - and made the apocalypse out to be a thing of greater power than, perhaps, it was. Like you said: she could ensnare demons, etc. Then in HoC it seems like a collection of termites struggling to be the first to die - thus a feeling of let down IF in DG you were really pumped for something cataclysmic.

Especially consider this while comparing the books themselves. Gardens doesn't mention the Pannion Domin MUCH (it does, but briefly - just as something scary to the south east) but then in Memories the Pannion Domin are crazy-scary and viciously brutal - killing numerous loved characters while having "few" powerful figures in their midst.

Now consider DG and it's greater build up to the apocalypse (compared to the build up to Black Corel in GotM) and HoC and the apocalypse finale seem pale by comparison to Black Coral despite having MORE build up and seemingly greater powers/characters at play. Kind of like if in the morning before Black Coral some ghosts killed all the K'Chain Che'Malle.

The key to enjoying it is in how its fall-out affects future books and in proving that not everything ends will a huge massacre and dead heroes, I suppose.

That's brilliantly put, and captures exactly where I am at. You psychic.
Read GotM, DHG and MoI a year ago. Came back and recently read HoC, so though oo re-read, and have begun reading 1-3 again.
Being halway through DHG, books 2and4 are very prominent in my mind, so I'm reading all this build up in DHG, with the flat climax of 4 fresh in my memory.
But you you nailed my experience.
I'm a little lost about this Black Corel though, are they NAMED as such in GotM? Because they ring no-bells having just re-read GotM 3 weeks ago.

[Illuyankas]

Basically, Weave, some of the posters in this thread have forgotten that this is the House of Chains forum and posted spoilers from later books without thinking, and should feel ashamed of themselves.

[Tatterdemalion]

I meant the city of 'Coral' which is prominent in Memories of Ice, which you have read. It was the location of the finale of the Pannion Legions vs. Brood's army. If you recall, Tiste Andii magic spreads darkness out across the sky as Moon's Spawn rises out of the sea, which is why I phrased it so. Calling it that spoils nothing of your glorious reading future.

As I remembered this was the House of Chains forum and minorly mispoke, I don't feel ashamed at all.