[Wampyry]

I've just about finished my second read of MT. Have a couple of questions
that I don't think will be answered by the end of the book:

In the Prologue, just before Scabandari is going to take Silas to Azath Tower,
Scaby is musing, I can think of no one with the power to stand before me.
Next line goes something like this: It did not occur to Sebandari to wonder where the vanished Rake might have gone. Rake never confronts Scaby so
what does this line mean? Might have something to do with the Awakening
Gothos mentions to Mael.

Pg 141, Tor. Fear is talking to his brothers about the dead Scabandari lying
in the Edur Ice fields. They killed our god!. Who? Trull demanded.
Fear, all of them. ELder gods and Eleint. The dragons spawned a child of
indescriable terror to seek out and hunt down Scabandari Bloodeye.
Who is this child? Could it be Kettle? Poor child already has more souls than
Sybil had personalities.

Any and all comments are appreciated!

[Optimus Prime]

Well have you read RG yet?

I was always more curious about what Andarist's grief was...and how Scabby was the cause of all his woe. That was a tantalizing little tidbit.

[Wampyry]

Xander;279435 said:

Well have you read RG yet?

I was always more curious about what Andarist's grief was...and how Scabby was the cause of all his woe. That was a tantalizing little tidbit.

I read RG quite a while ago. If answers are there, I'll wait until I re-read
BH and RG. Txs

[Optimus Prime]

Yeah I'd do a re-read if I were you....you may get a hint about that.

The prologue especially.

[Aptorian]

Xander;279440 said:

Yeah I'd do a re-read if I were you....you may get a hint about that.

The prologue especially.

It's not a hint, the answer is right there in the pages of the prologue of RG.

Go read the prologue, like it is also said in the prologue of MT, Scabby didn't consider what other powers were awaiting them in a world where the KCCM were destroyed.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Wampyry;279433 said:

In the Prologue, just before Scabandari is going to take Silas to Azath Tower, Scaby is musing, I can think of no one with the power to stand before me.

Next line goes something like this: It did not occur to Sebandari to wonder where the vanished Rake might have gone. Rake never confronts Scaby so
what does this line mean? Might have something to do with the Awakening
Gothos mentions to Mael.

It means that Rake would have made Scabby pay for wasting his little brother, pay big. Scabby was foolish not to have thought about that. It seems like Scabby was foolish about a lot of things - but it is hard to forgive him for underestimating Anomander Rake.

But as we know from the prologue and what the Sengar brothers saw in the Stone Bowl, the Elder Gods got to Scabby before Rake could.

Quote

Pg 141, Tor. Fear is talking to his brothers about the dead Scabandari lying
in the Edur Ice fields. They killed our god!. Who? Trull demanded.
Fear, all of them. ELder gods and Eleint. The dragons spawned a child of
indescriable terror to seek out and hunt down Scabandari Bloodeye.
Who is this child? Could it be Kettle? Poor child already has more souls than
Sybil had personalities.

Any and all comments are appreciated!

The child of indescribable terror is a big question mark. It's definitely not Kettle, she's a recent product of the Nameless Ones as far as we can tell, created for a purpose that's not clear to me just now. That's a big contrast from a being spawned by dragons in the ancient past to take out Scabandari.

I suppose we can't rule it out totally though, just because we don't know anything the indescribable terror child. In fact, I'm pretty sure that sentence is the only reference to it so far.

[Cougar]

Nevertheless, I think we have to be as certain as we can be that the Child of Indescribable Terror isn't Kettle, as DM says her genesis is too recent and doesn't fit in with what the Edur know at this point, or really what she is.

If we wanted to we could list all the reasons we have no idea who or what TCoIT is but I'll keep it short:

Not likely to be Kilmandaros as she is the godess of the FA (likely) and isn't Eleint and is listed as exsiting in the 'unformed time I think, before this point.

It isn't Mael for many of the same reasons.

The child doesn't really have to be an individual or creature, it could be an event like the sundering of Emurlahn (not arguing it is just using it as an example) or a "spell" or Otataral itself.

A few people like the idea that the Otataral Dragon is TCoIT but I'm uncertain if any evidence exists beyond the usual Malazite habit of taking an undefined label and asigning it to a person or object for no sensible reason.

[Wampyry]

I now think that the "child" is Menadore and Udinaas's kid, Rud Elalle, All three are in MT so no spoilers.

The first question is a little trickier. Probably was not clear. My problem is
Why was Rake away somewhere? What created the Awakening and, of course, Awakening from what. The statement made in MT was something like:
It never occured to Scaby to wonder where the vanished Rake might have
gone. Rake never went after Scaby so the statement means something else. Seems to me a catalyst occured: the imprisonment of Silas; the death
of the K'Chain Che' Malle which shattered the KCM sorcery that sealed the gate from KG to every other realm; a rent in one of the warrens. Something happened
that awakened or released Rake. Then again, I could be reading a lot into
a simple statement

In any event, thank all of you for your great answers.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Please, please format your posts so we can tell which parts are quotes and which parts are you. It's really annoying.

Wampyry;279938 said:

I now think that the "child" is Menadore and Udinaas's kid, Rud Elalle, All three are in MT so no spoilers.

Makes no sense at all. Why would a character born millennia after the disposal of Scabby be the child spawned to destroy him? There's no link there at all. Rud wasn't even spawned of dragons, was he? (Draconean Eleint and wyval-possessed parents notwithstanding).

Quote

The first question is a little trickier. Probably was not clear. My problem is
Why was Rake away somewhere? What created the Awakening and, of course, Awakening from what. The statement made in MT was something like:
It never occured to Scaby to wonder where the vanished Rake might have
gone. Rake never went after Scaby so the statement means something else.

Of course Rake went after Scabby. That's why Mael explicitly stated to Gothos that Osserc had been deployed in order to slow Rake down, so the Elder Gods could deal with Scabandari first. There's no great mystery here, it's right there in the text to see.

[Aptorian]

Dolorous Menhir;280463 said:

Of course Rake went after Scabby. That's why Mael explicitly stated to Gothos that Osserc had been deployed in order to slow Rake down, so the Elder Gods could deal with Scabandari first. There's no great mystery here, it's right there in the text to see.

Spoiler

Actually, Rake never went after scabby and never intended to go after him. He says so himself in the prologue of RG. I think he says something in the lines of two elder gods being more than enough to handle the edur.

[Wampyry]

Dolores Menhir, In response to your post #9 to this thread:
I disagree with you on nearly all points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wampyry
I now think that the "child" is Menadore and Udinaas's kid, Rud Elalle, All three are in MT so no spoilers.

DM: Makes no sense at all. Why would a character born millennia after the disposal of Scabby be the child spawned to destroy him? There's no link there at all. Rud wasn't even spawned of dragons, was he? (Draconean Eleint and wyval-possessed parents notwithstanding).

WAMP: The union of Wyval soul and Menadore qualifies for dragon blood as far as I am concerned. Udinaas was raped when the dragons were going to war.
Rod Ellale was 7 weeks old, very large for his age, when Omtose Phellack destroyed his home. Menandore saved him. Rod was not born millennia after
the death of Scaby. It was Fear who stated that the dragons spawned a child of indescribable terror, to seek out and hunt down Scabandari. Did this happen? Maybe Mendandore had a different agenda for him. Anymore would require spoilers and there is enough confusion

WAMP: The first question is a little trickier. Probably was not clear. My problem is
Why was Rake away somewhere? What created the Awakening and, of course, Awakening from what. The statement made in MT was something like:
It never occured to Scaby to wonder where the vanished Rake might have
gone. Rake never went after Scaby so the statement means something else.

DM: Of course Rake went after Scabby. That's why Mael explicitly stated to Gothos that Osserc had been deployed in order to slow Rake down, so the Elder Gods could deal with Scabandari first. There's no great mystery here, it's right there in the text to see.

WAMP: The mystery has nothing to do with whether or not Rake went after Scaby. We both know the answer to that!

Scaby is musing about who is left to stand up to him. ...Anomander Rake who
broke with his mother and with his kind. Who then vanished before I could deal with him

Story teller: It did not occur to Scabandari to wonder where, of the three sons of Mother Dark, the one who vanished might have gone.

Gothos to Mael, Go to Kilmandaros. Swat down this Tiste Eleint, but do it
quickly.
Mael, why?
Gothos, I sense a distant awakening - but not, alas, as distant as you would
like.
Anomander Rake?
Gothos nodded.
Mael shrugged. Anticipated. Osserc moves to stand in his path

The mystery, thus, is where did Rake vanish to and what awakened him at
this particular time? If the answer is in the text, I missed it!

[D'rek]

Scaby was indeed 'musing about who is left to stand up to him', specifically in terms of the world he feels he just 'conquered'. He believes there are no powers in the Malazaworld he just came to that can stop him and his Edur. He doesn't realize that Rake has moved to the Malazaworld before him, is already in the Malazaworld. He also doesn't realize the strength of the creatures of the Malazaworld, such as the EGs Mael and Kilmandaros, to mention a few.

As per Rake's awakening, as of the MT prologue we can't really say why he's awakening, but since Mael has anticipated it and blocked him with Osserc, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to think that perhaps it is Scaby's actions that have awakened him and he is coming to deal with Scaby personally.

Spoiler

And that is somewhat true. He is 'awakened' to expunge the pretenders and usurpers from KE, which is at least in part sundered because of Scaby. He feels no need to deal with Scaby himself, however, as Mael and Killy are more than enough for that.

[Aptorian]

Quote

DM: Makes no sense at all. Why would a character born millennia after the disposal of Scabby be the child spawned to destroy him? There's no link there at all. Rud wasn't even spawned of dragons, was he? (Draconean Eleint and wyval-possessed parents notwithstanding).

WAMP: The union of Wyval soul and Menadore qualifies for dragon blood as far as I am concerned. Udinaas was raped when the dragons were going to war.
Rod Ellale was 7 weeks old, very large for his age, when Omtose Phellack destroyed his home. Menandore saved him. Rod was not born millennia after
the death of Scaby. It was Fear who stated that the dragons spawned a child of indescribable terror, to seek out and hunt down Scabandari. Did this happen? Maybe Mendandore had a different agenda for him. Anymore would require spoilers and there is enough confusion

Wamp, it would be a lot easier to read through the discussion if you'd use the "quote boxes"

I still agree with DM.

First off, and this I might be mistaken, but Udinass wasn't raped in a timepocket that took place 400.000 years ago... was he? I can't find any info on the wiki.

Second, we really need some quotes here, but Menandore says herself that she designed Rud. She took from Udinass all that she needed. There's no mention of other dragons, and really, mixing a wyval with a soletaken dragon isn't the scariest creation I could imagine and it certainly wouldn't had stopped Scabby.

Third, we know that the Edurs history has been warped to fit their society and much of this is a myth. I find it likely that there never was a Child of Indescribable Terror. It's a boogyman the Edur invented to explain how their god was destroyed. Also, if there really was a greater purpose to Rud then I'm sure Erikson would have let some hint slip.

As for what Rake was doing, he was standing around in KE, perhaps killing an ascendant or dragon for sport, while he waited for Killy to show up.

[Wampyry]

Seems what I thought were harmless questions somehow created a brouhaha. Let's take the easy one first.

Scaby muses about Rake's vanishing. Story-teller says Scaby should have given more thought to
where Rake vanished. Gothos tells Mael that Rake is involved in an awakening. Taken together, I thought that these three statements were important. Still have no idea what occurred with Rake.

The other question is harder. It deals with Fear's statement to his brothers. MT, Bantam, SC, pg 141:
"The dragons spawned a child of indescribable terror to seek out and hunt down Scabandari...
Father Shadow was brought down by an Elder god named Kilmanadaros...."

At first I thought the child was Kettle, then switched to Rod Ellale. He was the only child I knew of
who was spawned by a dragon. The only other information I have is an approximate date as to when
Rod was conceived. MT, pg 122.

In his dream Udinaas found himself kneeling in ashes... A dead warrior walked close. Tall, black skin
a sword had taken most of his face. He begins dragging Udinaas... A thunder of hoofs. It is Menandore.
she cuts the warrior in half and knocks down Udinaas. A foot on his chest, she asks: "The blood of
a Locqui Wyval in the body of a slave. Which heart will you ride..." "Udinaas, I ride the Wyval."
Mendandore rapes him. MT, pg 126. Motions in the sky drew him around. Dragons. A score of the
creatures riding distant currents. Around them swarmed Wyval, like gnats. Udinaas understood something.
They are going to war!

MT 583. Feather Witch makes Udinaas take her to his place of dreams. Once there they see ghosts
of T'lan Imass and four women with a young child. Udinaas, "what's your name, child." "Rod Elalle"
Udinaas, "how did you survive?"
Rod, "I was playing. Then there were terrible noises and screams, and the street lifted and my house
was gone. I slid towards a big crack that was full of ice fangs...Then I hit two legs. She was standing
She was white fire, she reached down and picked me up. Then we were walking in the air. and she
said Oh no he wont. We arrived here, she was swearing and swearing. She said she worked hard on
this begat and that damned legless bastard wasn't going to ruin her plans."
Udinass, "how old are you?" Rod, "I forget." Udinaas, "how old were you before the ice broke the city?"
Rod, "seven weeks old. Mother kept saying I was growing too fast."
MT, 586. Udinaas, "what Hold claims this realm? Rod, this Hold is called Starvald Demelain."

Spoiler

RG 644. Rod greets Menandore. Mother!
Menandore, Imass! she said, speak our own language, my son, speak the language of dragons!
Rod, we are not Elient, mother. That blood is stolen, impure.
Mendanore, We are no less children of Starvald Demelain.

So, the combination of fighting dragons and Omtose Phellack make me believe that conception of Ron Ellae happened long in the past.
Until someone comes up with another dragon child, I stick with Rod Ellale

[Dolorous Menhir]

Rud Ellale was not born in the ancient past, and he was not spawned by dragons. He is a child of the modern era, and his extremely rapid maturing is explained by his Soletaken nature.

He is not the child of indescribable terror.

Quote

Scaby muses about Rake's vanishing. Story-teller says Scaby should have given more thought to
where Rake vanished. Gothos tells Mael that Rake is involved in an awakening. Taken together, I thought that these three statements were important. Still have no idea what occurred with Rake.

This is not hard. Scabby was thinking about the threats he faced in the new world. You have to remember that prior to the MT prologue, Silchas Ruin, Scabby and their followers had never been to Malazworld, and did not know much about it. Previously they must have lived in the Kurald warrens.

All Scabby knew about Rake was that he had left the Tiste warrens. So he assumed that Rake was no longer a threat, and the narrator makes it clear this was foolish. The reference to an "awakening" is just saying that Rake is reacting to Scabby's actions.

[Wampyry]

Dolorous Menhir;281336 said:

Rud Ellale was not born in the ancient past, and he was not spawned by dragons. He is a child of the modern era, and his extremely rapid maturing is explained by his Soletaken nature.

He is not the child of indescribable terror.

Dolores, Apt, et al. Last night I read some chapters in RG. You guys & girl are right. Rod Ellale is too young to be the dragon in Fears statement. Sorry about being so unyielding, but it's my nature. Thanks to all for trying to put me on the right path.
Wish I could say it wont happen again, but...

Now it's back to my re-reads, BH & RG. Maybe I will run across fighting dragons and
an ice floe that destroys floating cities