[Cold Iron]

Bhurnae;264174 said:

True oh dismissive one........denial of any of those items could lead to one becoming aggressive in the pursuit of a supply or show anger

Indeed, but likely if they had tried that with no success they could just as easily show any other personality trait, or none at all.

[RodeoRanch]

What if one doesn't believe in an "immutable soul" or a "true self?" Personality evolves over time and through experiences. The personality of you at 75 years old is far removed from the personality of you at 15 years old.

Genetic factors, environmental factors and life-experiences determine an ever evolving personality.

[Cold Iron]

Then how does one explain those things that we share beyond natural instinct, like an appreciation of beauty or an acknowledgement of goodness?

[Bhurnae]

Cold Iron;264175 said:

Indeed, but likely if they had tried that with no success they could just as easily show any other personality trait, or none at all.

Unlikely to be no reaction if one were starving/full or freezing/warm. Therefore achieving the basics or not would tend to reflect on the personality.

[Cold Iron]

Bhurnae;264178 said:

Unlikely to be no reaction if one were starving/full or freezing/warm. Therefore achieving the basics or not would tend to reflect on the personality.

Then there is no point where the ego stops being influenced by biology and the only true way to attain nirvana is through death?

[Bhurnae]

Given that we are living organisms we cant help being influenced by biology. Nirvana schmirvana

[Optimus Prime]

RodeoRanch;264176 said:

What if one doesn't believe in an "immutable soul" or a "true self?" Personality evolves over time and through experiences. The personality of you at 75 years old is far removed from the personality of you at 15 years old.

Genetic factors, environmental factors and life-experiences determine an ever evolving personality.

Well said.

You are born with what could be called "building blocks" of your personality, but the environment you grow up in can alter these of course.

Rodeo, I hope at 75 you learn to wear pants...cus that could get ugly...funny...but really ugly too

[Cold Iron]

Bhurnae;264182 said:

Given that we are living organisms we cant help being influenced by biology. Nirvana schmirvana

I think the buddha resolved this when he stopped fasting. Anyone know more about this?

[tharinock]

going back to the first post, if the buddhist monks shed their ego, does that mean that they gave up their electron, and ionically bonded to something else? could you bond 2 buddhist monks and an oxygen to make water?

anyway, I believe that the ego is shaped both through nature and nurture. You do genetically have certain tendencies. As for the acknowledgement of goodness, I believe that that is not genetic, but is acquired through nurture. If we grew up in a society that said eating babies made you holy, then we would all eat babies. If we do not eat babies, then we would believe we were doing an act of evil.
I also believe that in the end each action we do ultimately has the goal of producing the most possible gain for ourselves. A man who does community service believes that the satisfaction he feels is worth the time and effort. A man who steals might belive that the feel of adventure and excitement is worth the risk of getting caught, or that if he doesn't he wouldn't be able to support his family. A religious person who prays every holy day does so in order to gain favor with his deity and attain a better position in the afterlife.

[Mentalist]

sigh...
It's the old "nature vs nurture" debate (for the record: one of the oldest int he history of natural science)

the answer gained at present is that your personality is affected both by your genes (nature) and the environment you're in (nurture)

there are numerous studies on this, mostly done with twins, that happened to be separated from birth.

now, the studies mostly focused on things like achievements/skills/etc, but the gist is such a that:

your natural talents are more likely to be developed and increased and you are likley to reach your potential in an environment that allows you to do so.

now, the question was adressed at the issue "are rich kids smarter than poor kids? type thing", but the results (and implications), i believe are valid in personality traits as well. You amy be predisposed to certain behaviours from birth as result of your genetic makeup/heritage, but this "core" is entirely malleable, depending on the degree of influence the surrounding environment has on you.

now, this was probably slightly ranty, but the last part basically summarizes my point.

[Cold Iron]

tharinock;264235 said:

going back to the first post, if the buddhist monks shed their ego, does that mean that they gave up their electron, and ionically bonded to something else? could you bond 2 buddhist monks and an oxygen to make water?

I could make a solar system analogy too if you'd prefer.

Quote

anyway, I believe that the ego is shaped both through nature and nurture. You do genetically have certain tendencies.

Like what?

Quote

As for the acknowledgement of goodness, I believe that that is not genetic, but is acquired through nurture. If we grew up in a society that said eating babies made you holy, then we would all eat babies. If we do not eat babies, then we would believe we were doing an act of evil.

Yeah I can agree with that. Also beauty is often just something rare. I went whale watching once and while all the adults on the boat were squinting off into the distance and taking endless photos of open water a little girl said "mummy, why does everyone want to see the whale?" and the mum had to say "because it's beautiful". The girl was young, and so used to seeing things for the first time and didn't understand that it may be one of the only times in her life that she'll see a whale.

But at the same time we all acknowledge goodness and beauty, it is a factor in our lives even if the object may differ between cultures or individuals.

Quote

I also believe that in the end each action we do ultimately has the goal of producing the most possible gain for ourselves. A man who does community service believes that the satisfaction he feels is worth the time and effort. A man who steals might belive that the feel of adventure and excitement is worth the risk of getting caught, or that if he doesn't he wouldn't be able to support his family. A religious person who prays every holy day does so in order to gain favor with his deity and attain a better position in the afterlife.

What if someone saves someone elses life at the cost of their own?

[Cold Iron]

kud13;264241 said:

sigh...
It's the old "nature vs nurture" debate (for the record: one of the oldest int he history of natural science)

the answer gained at present is that your personality is affected both by your genes (nature) and the environment you're in (nurture)

there are numerous studies on this, mostly done with twins, that happened to be separated from birth.

now, the studies mostly focused on things like achievements/skills/etc, but the gist is such a that:

your natural talents are more likely to be developed and increased and you are likley to reach your potential in an environment that allows you to do so.

now, the question was adressed at the issue "are rich kids smarter than poor kids? type thing", but the results (and implications), i believe are valid in personality traits as well. You amy be predisposed to certain behaviours from birth as result of your genetic makeup/heritage, but this "core" is entirely malleable, depending on the degree of influence the surrounding environment has on you.

now, this was probably slightly ranty, but the last part basically summarizes my point.

You're right, the genetic core is malleable, but i was talking more about a spiritual true self or inner self. The core aspects of humanity that we all share.

[Mentalist]

hmmmm
are we anything aside from that?
What IS personality? What IS the mind?
I am a apsychology student, and i regard the mind as a pattern of neural connections. how they are formed are determined by genes.
As i wrote elsewhere, I'm not a very spiritual type, and in this case, I break things down into physical, graspable bits.

We all share same basic genetic code with some mutations. We are all the same speies, able to interbreed, and our offsprings can reproduce as well (not hybrids).
CI, while I am not scientific enough to believe life is an accident, I do not see the need for an "inner self", im afraid...

[Cold Iron]

kud13;264258 said:

hmmmm
are we anything aside from that?
What IS personality? What IS the mind?
I am a apsychology student, and i regard the mind as a pattern of neural connections. how they are formed are determined by genes.
As i wrote elsewhere, I'm not a very spiritual type, and in this case, I break things down into physical, graspable bits.

We all share same basic genetic code with some mutations. We are all the same speies, able to interbreed, and our offsprings can reproduce as well (not hybrids).
CI, while I am not scientific enough to believe life is an accident, I do not see the need for an "inner self", im afraid...

Don't be afraid, it's only symbolic, the need for it is only in order to aid our self-awareness. The actual tangible existence of some kind of inner self is beside the point and not under question. Rather, it is merely a device for seeing ourselves as more than merely our egos. What are we beyond our daily actions. What are the unforeseen consequences of our existence. Is there a pattern or set of laws governing all decisions or actions of all life and if so what do we call it. What do we call the part of this pattern that specifically pertains to yourself.

[Cold Iron]

Basically the question is this: how much of you is you and how much is god?

[tharinock]

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What if someone saves someone elses life at the cost of their own?

My response is that you believe that the satisfaction that you are saving the life is worth it, or that you will go into heaven, or that humanity is more important than yourself and the other person is better for humanity, etc...

I personally am an atheist, so I obviously believe that God is not a part of us. But I do believe that the core values of those we grow up around are impressed upon us. I guess this can be a more scientific equivalent to the God in the previous question. Or maybe a better way of phrasing it would be "How much of your personality can you control?", although that is a whole other demon.

[Cold Iron]

tharinock;264819 said:

My response is that you believe that the satisfaction that you are saving the life is worth it, or that you will go into heaven, or that humanity is more important than yourself and the other person is better for humanity, etc...

I personally am an atheist, so I obviously believe that God is not a part of us. But I do believe that the core values of those we grow up around are impressed upon us. I guess this can be a more scientific equivalent to the God in the previous question. Or maybe a better way of phrasing it would be "How much of your personality can you control?", although that is a whole other demon.

Thanks for the response. And I'm personally somewhat of a pantheist, so god to me can be everything and anything. If we're bringing up other demons, I may as well mention free will/determinism but just going back to the question for a moment I think the god I was referring to was the "unknown", the things that are out of our grasp and thus attributed (falsely or not) to some single entity. How much of you is because of the things that you actually have an impact on and how much of you would be the same regardless of your decisions (assuming free will)?

[tharinock]

Alrgiht. so this discussion assumes free will is true, and we are discussing how much free will we have?

[Zanth13]

Cold Iron;264167 said:

How would you describe the personality of a buddhist monk?

Never met one, but they are people also, so any two monks could have completely different personalities, just like any human.

If they seem similar it is because you are only looking at their actions, and do not know them... also they condition themselves to act and maybe think in a certain way and that is what you perceive.

I personally think environment has allot to do with what one turns into growing up but its not the only factor.... two people in the exact same situation can turn completely different.... an example could be two people who come from an abusive home, one person might in turn become abusive and another might detest it and never abuse some one in their life....


Alfred summed it up "some people just want to see Gotham burn"

[Mentalist]

Zanth, your example is good in general, but there are other factor as well.
Environment as a whole, shapes is in many different ways. You can replicate the general environment of an abusive home, but it won't be the same for each person. One person may have had experienced something during that time to make them think, and later, not abusive anyone, and the other didn't.

re: CI
so, you're asking how much your personality is influenced by the creator? (I am assuming God as the creator/reason why we exist for the purpose of the dicussion). As such, if you believe in "free will", on the basis that we are free, then God does not really influence us. if we are Blank slate, at birth, shaped by experiences, then God plays little role in our personality.