[Wry]

To be fair here's alot more evidence that Iccarium shattered KE, or a piece of it, than that Andarist was banging sorrit who was killed by Scabby. I mean is there any connection there at all other than wishful thinking?

It atates that the casue of Andarists grief was to do with Mother dark, Rake and the whole falling out that happened between them all (in work so don't have direct quotes). It's never mention that it has anything to do with Sorrit is it?

And why is scabby the edur who killed sorrit? How do we know any edur did it? how do we know that black woods are only native to KE, or that edur are the only powerful creatures that have access to them?

Please if there's any actual evidence for wild speculation let me know cause i can't find it.

[Mentalist]

Sigh
don't have books on me, so no exact quotes
a) in tBH, while Iccy and Mappo regard Sorrit
Iccy: "look at that cross--it's blackwood. Sorrit was killed in KE"
MT prologue
Scabby, thinking: "Sichas Ruin. the last of the sons of MD. The oldest, Andarist, in his grief driven to abndon his mommy and reject his draconeannnes. But he does not know that it was I who orchestrated it all, I am to blame for his grief. The second, who left and even now cowers instead of facing me" *proceeds to stab Ruin*
there might be more, but working on pure memory here. If you can hunt down Dolorous Menhir, he can explain it better (it was his theory)

[Jorram]

Surely you realize that in all probability Icarium was not even born (let alone know Sorrit, who according to this theory should have been already dead) at the time of the MT prologue or, in fact, the RG prologue, where the Sundering has already begun?

[Adjutant Stormy~]

who knows? he's pretty much immortal, the son of gothos (who was around at the time) it is entirely plausible.

[Gwynn ap Nudd]

Thelomen Toblerone;256400 said:

I must admit I'm particularly thrown, thinking back, about Moby's soletaken status. The other demons we've seen (Kendryll'ah, Aptorians, the one in GotM) don't seem to really have that sort of capacity, of course there's not much evidence, but it just seems that becoming soletaken isnt the sort of thing they'd focus on. But, that aside, the key thing is, why as a powerful, mighty, ascendant demon, would you think "oh ok, I'll change to a Bhoka'rala and sit in a guy's office as his familiar for 50 years, in the hope that something will come up taking me to a possible path of hands?"

Doesnt seem to make much sense really to me.

Moby is not alone as soletaken among demons. Tayschrenn's demon lord from GotM is also a soletaken:

Quote

p 675
Kalam crouched at the corner and waited for the Galayn lord to come into view. When it did, he blanched. 'Soletaken.'

The Galayn was assuming a form better suited to wholesale destruction. The dun-brown dragon paused, its wingtips brushing the building on either side.

[Mentalist]

Jorram;259735 said:

Surely you realize that in all probability Icarium was not even born (let alone know Sorrit, who according to this theory should have been already dead) at the time of the MT prologue or, in fact, the RG prologue, where the Sundering has already begun?

we don't know much about Iccy--it's entirely plausible he hung out with some K'Chain back in theday, and since we seem to believe that their warrens might be related to time... well, all is possible, lol

[D'rek]

kud13;259733 said:

Sigh
don't have books on me, so no exact quotes
a) in tBH, while Iccy and Mappo regard Sorrit
Iccy: "look at that cross--it's blackwood. Sorrit was killed in KE"
MT prologue
Scabby, thinking: "Sichas Ruin. the last of the sons of MD. The oldest, Andarist, in his grief driven to abndon his mommy and reject his draconeannnes. But he does not know that it was I who orchestrated it all, I am to blame for his grief. The second, who left and even now cowers instead of facing me" *proceeds to stab Ruin*
there might be more, but working on pure memory here. If you can hunt down Dolorous Menhir, he can explain it better (it was his theory)

Thats a very misleading bit about Andarist. The quote is:

Quote

Andarist, who long ago surrendered his power in answer to a grief that could never heal. All unknowing that the hand that delivered that grief was mine...

Thus, no mention of Andarist being soletaken.

[Mentalist]

lol, like I said, no books at hand. My apologies

Once, again, DM could explain it MUCH better than me...

[pastures]

skir, awesome quote there.

i always thought it meant that Scabby was the one who caused the schism between Andarist and Mother Dark. Maybe it was the fact that they were Soletaken ("impure"?) which prompted Andarist to "renounce his power". Anyway, does the power referred to here mean Soletaken power? Or something else? I don't know the full quote.

[D'rek]

It doesn't say what the 'power' is referring to. But there is no reference in it to Soletaken or eleint, so we should not assume so. Based off what we know of Scabby and Andarist, I think the most likely possibility is that Andarist devoted himself to guarding the relocated Shadow Throne, the grief being the wounding of KE. However, that might be a bit tight of a timeline (had Anomander relocated the throne by that point)?

[pastures]

agree re: grief of wounding of KE leads to guarding the ST, possibly as a form of revenge (or just caution) against the Edur.

[Mentalist]

skir;259904 said:

It doesn't say what the 'power' is referring to. But there is no reference in it to Soletaken or eleint, so we should not assume so. Based off what we know of Scabby and Andarist, I think the most likely possibility is that Andarist devoted himself to guarding the relocated Shadow Throne, the grief being the wounding of KE. However, that might be a bit tight of a timeline (had Anomander relocated the throne by that point)?

I don't think that he had--when Scabby thinks this, he's about to stab Ruin.
Rake supposedly couldn't move the Throne untill after he took care of everyone that was trying to take over KE--something he did AFTER Scabby got his skull smashed in.

[pastures]

Rake hadn't relocated the throne obviously, so the "surrendered power" must refer to something else other than guarding the throne.

[Wry]

I seem to recall somewhere it hinting that the reason Andarist turned away from mother dark was her mingling with Light... or did i imagine that, will have to check when i get home.

This is plausible though, Andarist -manipulated by Scandabari- rebels against Mother Dark by destroying her impure, Light-sullied children,- who would naturally be the royal family of the edur. This causes the wounding of KE which is why rake feels obligated to go in and clean the mess up (a point which bugged me), and also why Andarist, after feeling guilty, ends up guarding the shadow throne (another point which made no sense)

Really must hunt up that passage about why andarist turned away from the dark

[pastures]

Andarist was cast out by MD. He did not leave voluntarily. And i don't think it was bcos of FL. i think Scabby cooked that story up so that MD would cast him out. Andarist was loyal to MD to the death.

I dont think Andarist attacked the Edur at all. If anything, he was too caught up in his grief to care.

[Trolltaus]

Edit: This post will be under edition for a while, since my nice tables didn't look quite as good after I posted...
----> done editing. Hope it makes sense.


Some comments to the inheritance discussion in this thread:

If the genetics on Wu are anything like in the real world, this is the system:

_______parent 2:_______A_______a

parent 1

A____________________AA______Aa


a____________________Aa______aa



So, let's call the soletaken gene "S", and the non-soletaken gene "s". If the soletaken gene is dominant (which we can assume from the various tales of children with soletaken parents in the books), then we can have these different situations:

1) Both parents are soletaken, with only the soletaken genes. Then all the children would be soletaken.

2) Both parents are soletaken, but with both the S and s gene:

_______parent 2:_______S_______s

parent 1

S____________________SS______Ss


s____________________Ss______ss


So there's a 75% chance that the children are soletaken and 25% that they're not. 50% chance that they are soletaken, but also carry the not-soletaken gene.

3) One of the parents have SS genes, one of the parents is not soletaken:

_______parent 2:_______s_______s

parent 1

S____________________Ss______Ss


S____________________Ss______Ss


All children would be soletaken

4) One of the parents is soletaken with Ss genes, the other is not soletaken:

_______parent 2:_______s_______s

parent 1

S____________________Ss______Ss


s____________________ss______ss


So 50% chance that it's a soletaken, 50% that it's not.


If the gene is not dominant, then the situation becomes slightly different. Only those who have SS genes can become soletaken, and that means that both parents have to carry the S-gene.
You see the pattern of the tables and can check the various situations yourselves.

However, this is based on "soletakenism" being a purely genetic thing, and those who became soletaken without inheritance would have to be some sort of mutations (like Spider-man! ) from drinking blood etc.
I have of course not taken magic into this, and that is something one would also have to deal with on Wu.

Sorry about this loooong and rambling post, but I just wanted to clarify some things on genetics

[Urb]

Like I said, both parents must have the 'special' genes.

No but really, that was a sweet analysis of the whole who can be soletaken question. I wouldn't put it past SE to have buildt on something like this before he started writing about the shapeshifters. However, it must be more complex than that. Magic is involved, like you said yourself.

[Mentalist]

wow.. Trolltaus, you went Mendelian on the issue, have some rep for that...

ofc, since the only soletaken we've been acquainted with have been either
a) Draconean, after drinking Tiam's bllod
crazy products of the Firsr Empire ritual
or C) undead T'lan Imass

it's hard to work out relationships in practice.
only 3 pairs we have are
1) Osserc (positive) --> L'loric (not transferred)
2) Menandore (positive) + Udinaas (negative, but Wyval might be involved?) --> her son (name escapes me) , transferred
3) Draconus + other sister (both, supposedly positive) --> Spite (transferred) + Envy (unknown)

not a lot to go on...

oh wait there's also, Pran Chole (positive) --> Silverfox (transferred), but that's a special case
and Onrack (negative) + Kilava (positive) --> son (negative)
based on the last example, I'd say the gene might be recessive... But I haven't dealt with genetics in 2.5 years and my brain's in "break form school for a week" mode, so I may easily be wrong...

[D'rek]

kud13;262391 said:

ofc, since the only soletaken we've been acquainted with have been either
a) Draconean, after drinking Tiam's bllod
crazy products of the Firsr Empire ritual
or C) undead T'lan Imass

Except for Korbal Broachl, Bauchelain, Buke and the Jheck,

as well as Paran, Gruntle and Dejim Nebrahl, which are special cases.

edit: and also Moby and the proprietor of Kellanved's bar in Malaz City....

[Trolltaus]

What would be most likely; mutations (drinking Tiam's blood, ritual, magic, other blood-drinking) causing SS-genes, or Ss-genes?

I'm, like kud13, thinking that the S-gene is recessive, and that a mutation causes SS-genes.
And this explains all the situations kud13 listed above (as long as we assume that Udinaas' wyval-infection caused a Ss-gene and that Envy is soletaken).

Edit: @Sklir: We don't know anything about the parentage of the ones you mentioned; but like I've stated, a forced mutation can also cause people to become soletaken, not just inheritance.