[Optimus Prime]

Aptorian;249962 said:

Consider that Dessimbelakis was around in these times. But of course Kallor was mortal and Dessim probably not.

Well the old adage always applies. There is always someone out there better, faster, stronger, etc.

[Aptorian]

But not then. I just can't wait to see Kallor in TtH... I really hope he kills a lot of emo andiis.

[Optimus Prime]

LOL.

He'll probably end up killing Rake.

I definitely want to see him go off, give us reason to fear him, because so far he is a sissy.

[Aptorian]

A sissy?! He took two bolts to the gut and a side of what Tay was cooking... by the way I stick to my theory that the only help he got in that fight was the teleport out of there, the rest was all Kallor.

[Shurque's biatch]

Boys! (uh, girls?), uh, richards (should we shorten that to dick twins?) where is Abyss when you need him!

Stop the kallor is a wuss discussion on this here fine Tool vs Mok thread.

Anyway, I suspect that Tool is learning a whole bucketfull of new things and he is improving too.

I just don't think he has the edge to him that he had while part of the ritual. So maybe he is faster, but you really don't get the impression the the Imass learned much during their binding.

[Dancer+]

Venerus;249841 said:

Why, exactly, is it a reasonable assumption that Tool would be faster living than dead? Because the KC were? It has been made explicit that the Tellann ritual gave the Imass great power. No such mention is made of the KC and their undeath.

It is a reasonable assumption because after nigh on a year of debate plus, most forum members acknowledge this likely to be the case. I don't want to spark more debates over the topic so I'll argue in line with popular opinion.

Venerus;249841 said:

This statement doesn't bear much epistemological fruit, unfortunately. It's not like the Imass sought out every single warrior they could find and brought him or her to Tool. I'm fairly certain, for instance, that Tool never fought Icarium. Not knowing any equal isn't the same as knowing you're better than everyone else. The most we can make of that quote is that if it is true, he's just never lost a direct challenge.

It is why I put apparently in italics.

Venerus;249841 said:

The Seguleh aren't that talented? They've been tested against various ascendants and the like, they're clearly very talented, on any scheme. Karsa might be able to "stomp out the first" but right now we 1. Have no idea how that matchup would go and 2. Karsa is his own deal, unique across the ages. He shocks nearly every ancient and ascendant power he meets -- he's unusual. Another TTT like Karsa is a pretty tall order -- you can't just throw out a theory about there being one like that without backup. Especially because when Icarium saved their bloodline as referred to in HoC, it sounds like the Teblor were originally peaceful and did not enjoy fighting and murdering (there's a reference to mixing blood being rare because it involved/required violence, implying violence itself was rare).

All that being said, beating thirteen... how does that relate to fighting the first? Tool had no problem with Senu and Thurule, but Mok beat him. Rake made it to 7th and had to stop. Clearly there's a difference in skill and ability between 13 and 3, or 13 and 1. Substantial enough that beating 9 doesn't even mean beating 7 will go well, let alone a jump in 12 ranks.

It's called weight of evidence, and you have answered your own question about Karsa's ability compared to the first. How that fits in with Tool I admit it is tenuous. If you remember the origin of the Imass however you may come across evidence as to why they would generally be more adapted to fighting than current day humans. This is strictly irrelevant to two singular warriors however.

NOTE (edit): I won't get into a debate about Rake's trip to Seguleh island, most people seem to have the wrong idea about the event. I'm tempted but I won't do it.

Venerus;249841 said:

And, as a final note, although we have no idea what Tool's status is like as a human, we know for a fact that Mok is getting stronger all the time. K'rul says exactly that to Envy -- the first is concerned because Mok is becoming something fierce; there's some comment about how Mok's skills and abilities continue to develop.

That is the point, people are unwilling to outright admit both have developed since their last meeting. We don't know how much both have developed, I think it is quite clear that Tool lost the previous fight because of a combination of weapons disadvantage and speed factor.

I'll throw out another logical fallacy, Mok won last time and they've both developed so Mok will win again. This isn't true and we have no idea the levels of development so it is almost pointless to argue about such a thing. It is a matter of personal opinion, I choose to believe that a more primative, but advanced, Imass who was the champion of the race could beat the third best warrior in a single nation and I see strong evidence to back this up in my eyes. Believe what you will unless you draw new evidence to light my mind remains the same.

[Aptorian]

You could also argue that Tool is an honorable man. He lost the fight fair and square, no reason to fight again, another time, Tool would bow down.

[mob16151]

Ill teel you right now what I think Kallors ability is I think he can do things with an Army that are downright scary. After how many ever millenia of leading them im pretty sure not only do you know every trick in the book when it comes to warfare you probably wrote huge sections of it to. And thats not including the what not to do section. Lol sorry to go off post but ive never felt like Kallors abilitys should be that hard to see hes a bad ass warrior and general without peer.

[Optimus Prime]

Consider this however.

Tool is now mortal...so IF Mok's swords touch him now...he is in serious trouble.

So maybe it would be even an easier win for Mok?

[Dancer+]

Already covered that point.

Tool's speed should compensate for his lack of ability to take blows now unless he has lost both speed and power. He allowed himself to take the blows to protect his core area. It is a totally different game now, a different strategy is needed. I agree if Tool was hit he'd take a lot more punishment than previously.

I think Tool is less powerful now for the record but better at one-on-one fighting.

[Optimus Prime]

Sorry, must have missed that. My bad Dancer.

Anyway,

Was the only type of armor the Imass wore the skins and bones of animals? Would Tool wear armor now or just go au naturale?

[Aptorian]

An argument put in another thread, another time, in a galaxy far, far away, was that the mortality might be a plus for Tool. When you don't have to worry about mortal wounds you might start to fight in a more economic and more comfortable way.

Being mortal, Tool would be fighting for his life, that might make a man find ressources, speed and skill, that surpaces anything you might think he could achieve.

As for the armor, wasn't tool barechested in RG?

[Blacksox]

Dancer;250007 said:

It is a reasonable assumption because after nigh on a year of debate plus, most forum members acknowledge this likely to be the case. I don't want to spark more debates over the topic so I'll argue in line with popular opinion.



It is why I put apparently in italics.



It's called weight of evidence, and you have answered your own question about Karsa's ability compared to the first. How that fits in with Tool I admit it is tenuous. If you remember the origin of the Imass however you may come across evidence as to why they would generally be more adapted to fighting than current day humans. This is strictly irrelevant to two singular warriors however.

NOTE (edit): I won't get into a debate about Rake's trip to Seguleh island, most people seem to have the wrong idea about the event. I'm tempted but I won't do it.



That is the point, people are unwilling to outright admit both have developed since their last meeting. We don't know how much both have developed, I think it is quite clear that Tool lost the previous fight because of a combination of weapons disadvantage and speed factor.

I'll throw out another logical fallacy, Mok won last time and they've both developed so Mok will win again. This isn't true and we have no idea the levels of development so it is almost pointless to argue about such a thing. It is a matter of personal opinion, I choose to believe that a more primative, but advanced, Imass who was the champion of the race could beat the third best warrior in a single nation and I see strong evidence to back this up in my eyes. Believe what you will unless you draw new evidence to light my mind remains the same.

It's all irrelevant IMHO. Tools powers go far beyond his swordsmanship. Tool chose to fight Mok honorably and with the flat of his sword. If Tool had used all his powers I don't believe things would have went as they did.

If Tool was pissed and in his kill mode, like he was when he was trying to free Toc he would be much more difficult to beat. Now he is probably much faster and still has impresive command of Tellan; even if not bound to it.

I also have a hunch Tool will ascend now that he is a mortal.

[Optimus Prime]

Can't remember his clothing ensemble...lol...but I think it would be a dead even match...

So when he was T'lan his advantages were:

1. Didn't get tired
2. Cuts wouldn't slow him down unless they severed limbs
3. Possibly stronger and "more powerful"

And now that he is mortal...

1. He could be faster
2. Could fight for mortal desires and be fueled by fear of losing life

[Aptorian]

Do you think T'lan Imass are less agile? They don't really have so much flesh to hinder their movements but still.

[Dancer+]

Blacksox;250107 said:

It's all irrelevant IMHO. Tools powers go far beyond his swordsmanship. Tool chose to fight Mok honorably and with the flat of his sword. If Tool had used all his powers I don't believe things would have went as they did.

If Tool was pissed and in his kill mode, like he was when he was trying to free Toc he would be much more difficult to beat. Now he is probably much faster and still has impresive command of Tellan; even if not bound to it.

I also have a hunch Tool will ascend now that he is a mortal.

I'm not going to argue which direction the thread should take but it was started basically as who would win in a rematch, same conditions.

I am arguing Tool would win too, your point sounds as if it is trying to run contrary to mine. I agree with your entire post.

@Xander: Good summary

[Optimus Prime]

Dancer;250117 said:

@Xander: Good summary

Thanks

@Apt

Shouldn't he be less agile with lack of healthy tendons and ligaments?

[Aptorian]

Do they matter? Is it just the power of Tellan keeping it all together?

[Optimus Prime]

Good Question.

It just always seems to me, and I mentioned this earlier, that they are always described as creaking and lumbering in many parts of the books.

[Blacksox]

Tool would mostly certainly get his ass handed to him now. Hetan keeps him in such a state of total exhaustion he can barely raise his "sword"these days.