[MecnunK]

Ain said:

This belongs in the MoI forum, methinks...

On topic, Tool has beaten Mok before, so I doubt there will be any resulting difference.

No it was Mok who won and no I dont remember it being a close thing either.. Mok destroyed him easily if my memory serves me right.

[Dancer+]

Your memory serves you incorrectly.

And Ain''t_It_Just_ it belongs here, because we've seen Tool since. We've had more chance to gauge the Seguleh skill and the Imass plight. If we posted who would win now in the MoI forum it could be deceiving, it is a current issue. A RG issue.

[Asandir]

I don't know if anyone mentioned it but with tool now been alive he would ADAPT his technique. Do you honestly think he would try to rely on his old fighting style when he knew he could get pieces hacked off of him and still keep going. For all we know he's been in a 24/7 slashathon we the barghast trying to improve his skill. All good warriors adapt. As for weapons. Each weapon has its own technique ,advantages and disadvantages. In the end if both wielders are masters of their craft if comes to has the better prowess. Plus there's the playing field and luck.

[Dancer+]

That was exactly my point. I can't believe some would purport an explanation/logical connection that states: he would have died if he was mortal therefore he would have lost if he was mortal.

Like I said at the time, Tool's strategy was influenced by his strengths and weaknesses.

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

Asandir;261179 said:

I don't know if anyone mentioned it but with tool now been alive he would ADAPT his technique. Do you honestly think he would try to rely on his old fighting style when he knew he could get pieces hacked off of him and still keep going. For all we know he's been in a 24/7 slashathon we the barghast trying to improve his skill. All good warriors adapt. As for weapons. Each weapon has its own technique ,advantages and disadvantages. In the end if both wielders are masters of their craft if comes to has the better prowess. Plus there's the playing field and luck.

I completely agree. It is mentioned in MoI that the T'lan Imass had become far too ingrained in their fighting style. This isn't necessarily a bad thing after all; as Dancer applies in the post above, there's very little need for refinement when you are undead.

Now that Tool is revitalized, and especially given that he is aware that he has been eclipsed as the champion of swordplay on at least one continent, I would hope that in his time with the Barghast he was honing his skill and taking on new fighting styles. Though he may never meet Mok again, I get the feeling that Tool is the kind of guy who would owe it to himself to get "better" with the full intention of one day being able to walk into an arena and defeat ANYBODY.

[Binder of Demons]

I remember this thread from before in the POLLS section, and unless we get a rematch from SE or a specific statement about it, we'll never really know.

Blacksox said it earlier in this thread, and I've said it before, TOOL was using the flat of his blade while fighting MOK (and the other segueleh previously). He had no desire to actually harm his opponents because they weren't his enemies at that time. It is a serious handicap to be eliminating the most dangerous part of your weapon against a foe of similar or even higher skill.

People have mentioned that TOOL would be more vulnerable now that he is flesh and blood. However, if TOOL had been using his blades edge in his attacks then it also follows that MOK would also be at far greater risk of being injured.

I also wouldn't read too much into the statement of TOOL admiring MOK's skill level in killing the K'ell Hunter. We've seen characters like TEMPER in this series already who don't realise their own skill level, even when it is clearly exceptional.

So in summary you have
TOOL: First sword of the Imass, may be ascending, now flesh and blood (possibly making him relatively faster, but also more vulnerable to wounding), was not trying to kill in previous contest.

MOK: "Won" the first fight, Very highly ranked/feared in a purely martial culture, very fast, seems to be getting more powerful aside from his swordmanship (It was getting harder for Envy to control him).

I think it would be a toss up depending on the conditions and the motivations of both parties. But I just don't see how people can use the previous contest as a reliable guide considering how Tool handicapped himself?

[Veilside]

Binder of Demons;261609 said:

I remember this thread from before in the POLLS section, and unless we get a rematch from SE or a specific statement about it, we'll never really know.

Blacksox said it earlier in this thread, and I've said it before, TOOL was using the flat of his blade while fighting MOK (and the other segueleh previously). He had no desire to actually harm his opponents because they weren't his enemies at that time. It is a serious handicap to be eliminating the most dangerous part of your weapon against a foe of similar or even higher skill.

People have mentioned that TOOL would be more vulnerable now that he is flesh and blood. However, if TOOL had been using his blades edge in his attacks then it also follows that MOK would also be at far greater risk of being injured.

I also wouldn't read too much into the statement of TOOL admiring MOK's skill level in killing the K'ell Hunter. We've seen characters like TEMPER in this series already who don't realise their own skill level, even when it is clearly exceptional.

So in summary you have
TOOL: First sword of the Imass, may be ascending, now flesh and blood (possibly making him relatively faster, but also more vulnerable to wounding), was not trying to kill in previous contest.

MOK: "Won" the first fight, Very highly ranked/feared in a purely martial culture, very fast, seems to be getting more powerful aside from his swordmanship (It was getting harder for Envy to control him).

I think it would be a toss up depending on the conditions and the motivations of both parties. But I just don't see how people can use the previous contest as a reliable guide considering how Tool handicapped himself?

I think you're mistaken about Tool trying to use the flat of his blade against Mok. I don't see anything that points to it in any case upon rereading that particular fight.

[Mcflury]

the first seguleh tool fought was easily knocked aside, the second one gave tool a hard fight, but tool said it was also because of the fact that tool used the flat of his blade (so that's the seguleh tool tried to fight that way, but it wasn't Mok). The fact that tool had it that hard against the second seguleh, led tool to believe fighting Mok might just be the end of his undead life... so finally when Mok and tool start fighting, tool would be an idiot if he still tried to use the flat of his blade... (all this text just to point out tool didn't use the flat of his blade against Mok... and if he did, tool is an idiot after all )

[mmdw45]

Xander;250110 said:

So when he was T'lan his advantages were:

1. Didn't get tired
2. Cuts wouldn't slow him down unless they severed limbs
3. Possibly stronger and "more powerful"

And now that he is mortal...

1. He could be faster
2. Could fight for mortal desires and be fueled by fear of losing life

As I recall, he was also all beat up at the time from Tok's rescue (Picker saw an Imass so battered she could hardly believe it was standing) whereas Mok had spent the journey asleep. So Tool may or may not have been at the top of his game.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Mok won a re-match. I WOULD be surprised if Tool cared about winning a re-match. Sure, he's a warrior and competitive almost by definition--I expect he'd go in for a friendly re-match if he had the chance, just to see if he could do it--but the notion that the First Sword could be *beaten* seemed to engender a fair amount of moral outrage in Kilava and none in Onos T'oolan.

-Max

[Svaran]

MecnunK;259495 said:

No it was Mok who won and no I dont remember it being a close thing either.. Mok destroyed him easily if my memory serves me right.

Thats how I remember it, Tool said himself he had never seen skill like Moks.

[Holsety]

Quote

That was exactly my point. I can't believe some would purport an explanation/logical connection that states: he would have died if he was mortal therefore he would have lost if he was mortal.

Like I said at the time, Tool's strategy was influenced by his strengths and weaknesses.

The fact that he can "adapt" to be more self-conscious and guarded in his fighting just means that losing his immortality won't be an automatic loss. It doesn't advantage him in any way to be more vulnerable.

Even when letting by numerous blows, tool was unable to win the match. If he fights in a more guarded and careful fashion, he would be even harder put to strike a decisive blow. I'm sure he would not have let so many blows through...but he would also be more centered on defense. Whatever his current skills were, they would not have been enough to win the fight were he mortal, unless it's true that being mortal would have given him a very significant speed boost.

If tool would have won with a more defensive style, it calls into question his ability to think during a fight and use the best possible strategy in the first place.

Does tool turn into dust at all during the fight?

The "speed" advantage is hypothetical, and it's just guesswork about whether it would be enough to give him a win. Whereas the mortality seems to be a definite disadvantage, unless the reborn imass' skin is actually hard as rock.

Additionally the point about Tool being unable to fight for his life sounds suspect to me. This sort of implies the fight was unimportant to him. But at the time, wasn't he being interrupted from saving Toc's life? Onrack was able to rise to anger and passion for trull, it seems reasonable to conclude that Tool could reach a similar state...but I don't have MOI on me so I can't take a looksee about whether Tool was frenzied or unenthusiastic or somewhere in between.

If he wasn't frenzied in his urge to end the battle and get to toc, it in turn means that he MIGHT not be driven to a murderous frenzy even in defense of his own life.

Quote

Now that Tool is revitalized, and especially given that he is aware that he has been eclipsed as the champion of swordplay on at least one continent, I would hope that in his time with the Barghast he was honing his skill and taking on new fighting styles. Though he may never meet Mok again, I get the feeling that Tool is the kind of guy who would owe it to himself to get "better" with the full intention of one day being able to walk into an arena and defeat ANYBODY.

Still, it seems reasonable to conclude that if Tool is trying to find a new way which keeps himself better guarded, or relearning one used in the pre-ritual days, his progress will be slowed in comparison to mok. Among Imass he and onrack seem like the most likely candidates for quickly adapting to mortal life though.

[Dancer+]

Turning into Dust would have been dishonourable. There was also a reason that Tool was called the broken, his motivation was low.

I don't think your post, although intelligent, has anything within it to disprove other theories. On another note, Tool wouldn't need much more speed to keep up with Mok, the fact he managed to fight him for a few minutes proves the speed difference is almost minimal, and we can expect an improvement. Basically, I think other points would have more validity to attack Tool's potential win into the future.

[Aptorian]

Can I get a quote that says Tool was using "the flat of his blade" against Mok?

I highly doubt that Tool was trying to keep him alive. There can only be one supreme sword fighter, if you have to kill the other one to prove your better that's just tough shit.

[Kalahinen]

There is no such quote, Apt.

'There can be only one Ninja Master'

[Blues]

Theres a dialogue between Trull and mortal Onrack in RG where Onrack says something along the lines of, "Now you'll be witness to a rare sight. An Imass warrior fighting in anger" (yeah ok so i butchered that quote badly, I know, but I let a friend borrow my copy).

Onrack implies that he is more powerful than his undead self because now he has passion to fight with. More vulnerable? Probably. But still more powerful.

Maybe this is a huge stretch to apply this to mortal Tool, but it could be more evidence that Tool gained power when he became mortal.

Either way I'm convinced that the mortal version of Brys would beat both mortal Tool and Mok.

Edit: I say mortal version of Brys because who knows what he is now.

Edit #2: Yeah, I know I don't have evidence that Brys would win, but I'll convince myself regardless.

[Kalahinen]

I don't think so...
Rhulad chopped fingers from Brys, I don't think he could have managed the same with Mok. Brys is extremely skilled but his speed might not be superhuman.

[Aptorian]

Rhulad did chop fingers off Brys hand, but this was a strategic move that let Brys survive Rhulads attack and gain the upper hand.

[Kalahinen]

But the outcome is the same, nevertheless.

[Aptorian]

Yes, but one of them is a concious decision by brys, the other implies that Brys isn't as good a fighter as Mok because he lost two fingers... which is crap.

[Kalahinen]

To that we don't know the answer. My original speculation was that Brys might not be as fast as Mok (who seems to be superhuman fast), I acknowledged Brys' skill as a superb fighter.