[Whiskeyjack]

I'm a good way into Midnight Tides, just read the scene where Corlo tries to explain to Seren Pedac the diffrences between Holds and Warrens. It was all very vague to me. What I would like answered is... what are the pertaining diffrences of warrens and holds? Then there are High Houses too....
I'm starting to belive I've missed or forgotton some of the more basic stuff, in all honesty my english isnt flawless:o

If nothing else, I would like you to speculate:rolleyes:

[Aptorian]

There's an endless supply of threads on this subject both in Midnight Tides forum and the later books.

Basically you're confused. Warrens is the passage ways of magic, it's the name for any conduit of power. The difference lies between Houses and Holds.

First, in the earliest days of what ever came before the elder times we know, there was wandering. All the elements were doing their thing, it seems there wasn't much in the way of order then.

Then there were the holds and the tiles. We don't know much about these times either but basically things were crude, raw or primitive, what ever you want to call it.

In present day we have the houses and the deck of dragons. This new form of the warrens was made by Kru'll, why we don't know. The warrens travelling through the houses are more refined, more sophisticated making it possible to shape magic in ways not seen before then.

[Zanth13]

From my understanding

Holds are older then the warrens,

warrens apperently evolved from the holds.



you can learn mucho stuff by looking at old threads, there is enough speculation to fill an encyclopedia the search option is helpful.

EDIT: and that is why he is called quick apt, man I must type slow or something

damn i hate typos

[Whiskeyjack]

Alright, thanks for the replies, those were so quick, I didnt even have the time to leave my chair. Much appreciated:)

Houses as a term for where the warrens manifest and are at it's strongest does make alot of sense, and it was how i perceived it to begin with, before all the talk about holds, that is.

I'll play with the search function for now. Thanks:)

[Aptorian]

I don't know if the warrens actually manifest in the houses.

The houses seem to be the gateway into a warren but seldom the only accesspoint. Rather the house, if Shadowkeep is anything to go by, is merely the gatehouse and residence of the king or queen.

And yet, seeing as the house seems to be the direct change from the time of the holds, the house could actually be the place from where the power emanates.

[Whiskeyjack]

Merely the residence of the king or queen?

If that's the case, I'm sure they picked them for a reason. House after all is big word, so it being a mere gateway when there are several others ways to acces a warren makes little sense to me.
The house being a source where power emanates, however, sounds more likely.

[Mcflury]

the way I viewed it is this: warrens is just the thing that makes the magic flow into a certain world (so when a mage activates his warrens, the magic is ready to be unleashed in that world). Imo both holds and houses manifest through warrens.

Houses though is sort of the capital city of that magic, where the highest power is located and from where all magic is/can be controlled. Holds are the same as houses but then elder (and thus more rough, more Gothic style instead of Rococo )

Or is some part in my vision completely impossible?

[Mentalist]

it's confusing... I had a topic in RG once about the different warrens and trying to classify and explain them, but it kinda lost momentum...

As for Holds and Houses--different ways of organising and controlling magic, imho.. Houses are newer, more refined, more boundaries and restrictions. Houses respond to "aspects of power", and if there's enough powerful beings/ascendants that are banded under using the same aspect, a house is born. this is somehow regulated by the Azath, in ways I cannot begin to fathom

[Aptorian]

... nooo, I can't believe that :confused:

The CG for example couldn't just get all his players together and presto house appears with warren and all. The house needed to be sanctioned to be included in the deck... the system if you will.

The interesting question would be what happens when a new house appears. As the House of Chains gets known, will it gain its own warren? How is this done. Does a place in Kru'lls bloodstream grow out of the blood making room for the house?

[Mcflury]

hmm, and here I was thinking the hous of chain's warren was Chaos, no? I mean, the CG always manifests himself in Chaos magic...

[Aptorian]

Chaos is anathema to magic so it couldn't exist in Kru'lls blood. The CGs poison is chaos but the House is outside of the CGs control.

I wonder what the House of Chains aspect is supposed to be... pain?

[Whiskeyjack]

ah yes, there is a house without a warren.... that certainly confuses things:(

But if there is no warren, there has to be another source from which CG can draw power. House could still be a fluid concept for where power emanate or manifest, no? But then the deck seems far to organised for fluid concepts....

In conclusion, my point is: blaaah

Chaos is anathema to magic or the warrens?

[Mcflury]

I believe it's an anethma to magic, not the warrens... so in my (probably wrong) opinion there is a Chaos warren used by the CG (and thus connected to the HoC)

[Blues]

I think the bit about ST's house being a gateway was in reference to it being a gateway to the elder version of shadow, KE.

I think there was a quote about it in MoI; I'll try to locate it later. I remember someone saying, "I wonder what ST would think if he knew his house was just a gatehouse to Kurald Emurlahn?"

[Whiskeyjack]

Mcflury: if chaos was the antathema to all magic, what kind of power is it? If it was the anathema to warrens, it could still be described as a diffrent sort of magic. And magic is the only word suitable I can find for the power CG invests in Rhulad. I can see why CG and any kind of warren doesnt match up however, as his influence is described as posion upon them, as Aptorian stated.

Blues: let me know what you find:) sadly I dont have the money to buy the books, making re-reading for further pondering hard.

[Mcflury]

hm, point taken WJ

[Mentalist]

and here I was thinking that Otatara was anathema to magic....
EDIT; chaos (and this MIGHT be a GotM-isms), is the space b/w warrens, i.e., "un-ordered magic"
Also

Spoiler

We are pretty much told in tBH that CG operates thru KE

and in HoC, High House Chains tried to claim a warren to be their own...

[Whiskeyjack]

Ah, spoiler, that will have to wait.

The way I see it a mage would have to shape the energy from the warrens to get the wanted result, not just acces it, then there'd be no diffrence in skill level between mages. Leading me to belive that the warrens aren't actually "ordered magic". It might be in comparison to chaos, making magic from chaos harder to shape into a desirable effect, making the magic unpredictable, but not less powerfull.

But the notion of magical energy just swirling around in chaos is pretty much unheard of to me though... if there was such a thing, wouldn't others seek that power?

[Aptorian]

even the power in the house warrens has a raw or wild aspect. In DG we hear how the power of a warren is taking over a high mage and tearing him apart.

As you say, it's the mages that shape the magic, but control is also needed or they end up like the high mage.

[Whiskeyjack]

Aye, I remember something to that effect

Still clueless as to what to make of the holds though, anyone recall somthing being written about how the transfer from holds into warrens happened? or more importantly, why.

Otherwise I'll just have to search the forums for further speculations, but yeah, Im kinda lazy:)