[Jayblah]

Forgive the horrendous pun above, but the Karsa portions of the story are really beginning to grate.

I know I'm going to be mauled by the legion of Karsa fanatics, but I can't resist. I'm not trying to be a unique snowflake here, my dislike towards Karsa is genuine. Simply put, he bores me and his inclusion into the series has made it weaker for me.

Be warned: The following is a foaming-at-the-mouth rant and may largely be incoherent.

What is Karsa's goddamn deal? One of the joys of this series is that even the baddest of the bad can have their face melted. There is no genuine hierarchy of power.

Hedge and Quick Ben decimated three ancient and extremely powerful inhabitants of Wu with relative ease. Fener, a flippin' god, was pulled down and is now scared witless about getting his ass beat. Raest, probably the single most powerful ascendant we've encountered thus far was Azath'd to prevent him from running amok and obliterating the world. Enter Karsa. Apparently, boosting his willpower attribute at character creation has rendered Karsa to be a nigh-invincible juggernaut of unmitigated whoopass. Hell, Bairoth invested more points in +STR but apparently +WILL is the god-attribute in Malazan. Fine, blood oil granted him magic immunity to all but Elder magic. Alright cool, he wields a ~7 foot tall unbreakable stone sword, so the heck what? Blah blah, hes immune to disease (due to Toblakai blood?). Hooray, hes apparently his own warren now too! What the heck does that even mean with respect to Karsa? Is he going to go all-Bellurdan on us next? When does this crap end? Yawn. Seriously, just yawn. Icarium, a genuine badass with the pedigree to prove it, is atleast a decent fella and until Reaper's Gale, displayed a very real weakness (low MEM). Anomander Rake is a gazillion years old, and amongst other things, a freakin' Soletaken Eleint. Quick Ben is absurdly powerful, but hey, he's got twelve souls, is more mysterious than the meaning of life, and is resourceful to a fault. I can swallow their "I'm overpowered" spiels because they make sense, somewhat. Karsa on the other hand is some diluted Toblakai-mutt whose singular defining characteristic is he just "wills" himself to persevere.

For cripe's sake, he takes out two of the most feared and oldest known creatures in the world easily and this is before he's apparently maturing and growing ever stronger. Yes, I get that he took wounds, but did they even matter? Christ, he killed one Deragoth with his bare hands. He later does the same against a KCNR; also an extremely potent foe. Icarium sets a foot onto Letheri soil and the continent trembles in fear. What happens later? Karsa, happy as you please, strides right up to Icarium and is moments from snapping his neck. Erikson through Dev has establish that Karsa is no mere boaster. His will be done. If Karsa tells Dev that he was going to snap Icarium's neck, the boundaries set dictate that he more than likely would have. Ugh.

I fervently hoped that Karsa, the giant douchebag, perished in Reaper's Gale in some amazing finale complete with noble sacrifice. Hell, when Karsa ended up at the CG's turf, I held out hope that the jackass would take up the cursed weapon and give the series a colossal badass that Icarium could obliterate in book 10 along with half the continent. Really though, Karsa needs to "WITNESS!" his own ass kicking at the hands of someone and quicklike, because I can't take much more of the arrogant turd in his current godstate.

[Mentalist]

You are entitled to your opinion, of course
BUT
Karsa was whupped by the FA
KArsa was ataken prisoner by a bunch of Nathii, and then (repeatedly) by Malazan soldiers
Karsa got himself clubbed by Mappo (nevermind that he wasn't looking at the time)
Karsa still has an upcoming date with the FA from HoC, that's supposed to arrive when the fate of the world will depend on him.
Bottom line: Karsa's not invincible. Yo speak about lack of hierarchy of power--DEgaroth and KCNR were OLD... as such, their badassitude was greatly exagerated, same as Ruin or the 3 Sisters, or Raest. Karsa can be owned by smarter Malazan soldiers. and his performance in RG did not surprise me at all: Rhulad never was so bad to begin with--it was mostly the sword...

[Clip]

I agree with you in that Karsa is ridiculously overpowering, but that's why I like him, I like the fact that people who think that they're powerful have all their schemes and plans to take over the world, but then Karsa shows up and it's all over, it's awesome.

Also we don't know everything about Karsa yet.

[cerveza_fiesta]

well, I doubt too many will agree with you outright, but you do make a few valid points.

First, I do find it kinda weird that he's so overpowered when there really isn't much (that we know of) to distinguish him from any other mortal Teblor.

Second, I agree karsa should die because it will be one of the awesomest moments in the series when he does.

I don't so much agree with comparing his power level on the same scale as Iccy, QB and Rake. In keeping with your DnD style analogies, for other powerhouses we have QB who's a masterfully powerful mage, Kalam who represents a more roguelike class, etc...Karsa is just the specialist barbarian class. Different type of hero and thus powerful in different ways and having different resistances.

I do think his "will" is kind of a neat aspect too. It gets me thinking about the driving forces of Wu. Like when hedge describes himself as being held together by some "force of will" that keeps his spirit from simply being absorbed into hood's realm. It opens up questions about what will is to the Wu-ites, and if will is strong enough, it can even negate the normal rules of operation (ie dead whose spirits gain the ability to wander and magic that doesn't work on people that don't care about it). Force of will might be the key to ascendancy, immortality and one of the paths to godhood. Who knows.

Finally, I kind of dig his style. Just mega pissed all the time and making sure everybody knows it. I find his parts pretty well written and at the very least entertaining to read. Plus his exchanges with Samar Dev are hilarious.

[Ezikeil]

I belive Karso is overpowered.

The Malazans humbled him, for a time. It was what alowed him to come to terms with some of his ghosts.

I think what is going to happed to Karsa is not going to be good for him unless he pulls his head of out of the clouds.

After all it is called Malazan Book of the Fallen.
Not the Tales of Karsa

Oh has SE explained what the title means. It is a pet theory of one on my friends that it stands for all of the acendents/gods that the Malazan Empire toppled.

[Abyss]

Urko broke Karsa's ribs and put him down fast.
The deragoth were overconfident.
Icarium was fast enough to disarm him.
The KN was just out after a few thousand years stuck in a sewer.

Sure, he's had some amazing wins, but he's not unstoppable.

Moreover, the entire point of the character is how he's changed from 'savage barbarian' to 'nobel savage' (so to speak and bearing in mind SE likes to mess with that concept - see Trotts in MoI and GotM) to wild card in the entire game.

My point being, fixating on the 'Karsa is overpowered' element is overlooking just what SE is accomplishing with the character.

- Abyss, aka Savage Sword of Abyss!!!

[Obdigore]

He Isn't that overpowered.

He Lost to a KCNR, whereas Tool, the Imass first sword, cut through numerous undead (tougher to kill) KCCM.

The reason he (and other people, such as QB) aren't having trouble destroying these big evil baddies is twofold.

First, When .001 of the population can be the big huge strong character, and there is only 10,000 people, you only get a couple. When you then have 10,000,000 people, you get a couple more.

Secondly, all these things are from the time of the holds or before. It seemed to have always been a straight up sword on sword, magic versus magic battle in the 'old days'. Things are a tad more complicated in the current time, and, your abilities that you had, that you have not used in ages, might be a little rusty.

You say he is unstoppable? What if there were two KCNR chained under the castle? He would be obliterated.

People who can right now take out Karsa:
Tays
QB
Urko

Those are just humans, that we have met and been given a clue as to what they can do. Traveller? Probably. Rake? Probably, especially if he gets draconic.

Plus, when you are setting someone up to become the next god of battle and death, you need them to be pretty strong, I would think.

[Kalahinen]

Jayblah@

your post is one of the best I've read on this forum! Witness my agreement of your opinion.

PS. Kallor will prevail against him...

[Silencer]

Great post, OP.
I can really see Karsa getting his ass kicked by magic! It's got to happen, all this time, we see mage, we see Karsa, mage unleashes, Karsa walks through.....
Karsa meets Quick Ben (just an example) - "Witness (again)!"........"Oh shit, it didn't work this time". We all 'witness' Karsa getting his ass kicked by magic - what a plot twist!

There is also this point to be made - Icarium is old. All the stuff he has supposedly done, was way back with the First Empire, like Dejim. So does he suffer from this same "new beats old" stuff? Maybe that is why Karsa knocked him out, threatened to break his neck? Remember, the earth shaking thing was in memory or Icarium....

[Dancer+]

Good point, his battle against Trull was by no means straight forward. Although he was easily the eventual winner. I'd guess Icarium does not suffer from the same "new beats old"

I think it would be fitting if Karsa gets blown away by overconfidence, just like the old ascendants. Magic, cussers, Traveller. Perfect solution, don't you think?!

[Cold Iron]

Jayblah;236387 said:

Forgive the horrendous pun above

This is why I stay away from the book threads.

[Jayblah]

kud13;236392 said:

You are entitled to your opinion, of course
BUT
Karsa was whupped by the FA
KArsa was ataken prisoner by a bunch of Nathii, and then (repeatedly) by Malazan soldiers
Karsa got himself clubbed by Mappo (nevermind that he wasn't looking at the time)

Most of this happened while Karsa was still a teenager by Teblor standards. His power has grown by leaps and bounds since then, particularly after he forged his new blade.

Quote

Karsa still has an upcoming date with the FA from HoC, that's supposed to arrive when the fate of the world will depend on him.

I only pray that Calm informs him her true name is Assbeat and proceeds to lend veracity to her namesake as she does precisely that to the douche.

Quote

Yo speak about lack of hierarchy of power--DEgaroth and KCNR were OLD... as such, their badassitude was greatly exagerated, same as Ruin or the 3 Sisters, or Raest. Karsa can be owned by smarter Malazan soldiers. and his performance in RG did not surprise me at all: Rhulad never was so bad to begin with--it was mostly the sword...

Fine, I can agree that the KCNR he killed just might be a no-talent wuss amongst their species just as we humans have a wide range of physical prowess. I don't know if I can accept the Deragoth's power as having been greatly exaggerated. They are universally feared by basically everyone who knows of them, yet Karsa makes them look like mere pups. But, Raest? Exaggerated? The dude took on 5 Eleint (4 ancient Tiste Andii soletaken and a pure dragon) and shrugged off their attacks all the while hop-skipping toward Darujhistan whistling dixie. It took an Azath, the need was that great, to contain him. C'mon now.

[Obdigore]

Jayblah;236475 said:

But, Raest? Exaggerated? The dude took on 5 Eleint (4 ancient Tiste Andii soletaken and a pure dragon) and shrugged off their attacks all the while hop-skipping toward Darujhistan whistling dixie. C'mon now.

You mean the old power, that was thoroughly engulfed by an Azath house, and is now 'content' to be a guardian? That Raest?

When people like QB, who is a new power, decimates 3 ascended sister elients at the same time? Is QB > Tays? Are there other huge new powers out there?

Karsa's story is about a barbarian becoming a hero and world-wary ascendant, not about some normal TTT who gets enslaved and used as a slave for years until he dies.

Karsa is THE BEST the TTT have to offer. He is an Anomander Rake, he is a Silchas Ruin.

Do you honestly think that the CG didn't help him along, possibly helping him create his personal warren? Where do you think all the ghosts that are 'chained' to him are?

Why is the newly ascended gods of wars' warren 'weak', because there aren't enough slain souls in it? Not enough spilled blood? And yet there goes Karsa, wandering along slaying things for his own glory, possibly powering his Warren.

Karsa is a living, breathing Dragnipur, except anything he slays makes him more powerful instead of just powering the wagon.

Would you get sick of Rake running around slaying hundreds of thousands of baddies, including an ELDER GOD if we saw that story?

[Leoman]

I'm sick of everyone loving Icarium, the guy is a little bitch,
I had to force myself to read through the parts in the book with him in it.

I'm not a hardcore Karsa fan, but I do like reading the parts about him.


Also, even Trull held his own against Icarium for a while.

[Jayblah]

Obdigore;236478 said:

Would you get sick of Rake running around slaying hundreds of thousands of baddies, including an ELDER GOD if we saw that story?

Yes, I would. Particularly if Rake was an insufferable douchebag whilst doing so. I don't even care much for Rake and his "over 9000!!!" powerlevel right now. My favorite characters tend to be the "mere mortals" with robust personalities. Of course, I also adore Quick Ben and he's getting to be pretty absurd himself... but atleast he's a cool cat. Atleast he's humble enough to show trepidation and fear, moments before he melts their face with his 3,000 unleashed warren kamehameha. If Karsa continues to evolve from his current neanderthal outlook on life, into something that passes for a decent person that isn't prone to filleting a haplass guard because he "looked at me funny" then yeah, I might end up liking him more.

[Obdigore]

Jayblah;236481 said:

Yes, I would. Particularly if Rake was an insufferable douchebag whilst doing so. I don't even care much for Rake and his "over 9000!!!" powerlevel right now. My favorite characters tend to be the "mere mortals" with robust personalities. Of course, I also adore Quick Ben and he's getting to be pretty absurd himself... but atleast he's a cool cat. Atleast he's humble enough to show trepidation and fear, moments before he melts their face with his 3,000 unleashed warren kamehameha. If Karsa continues to evolve from his current neanderthal outlook on life, into something that passes for a decent person that isn't prone to filleting a haplass guard because he "looked at me funny" then yeah, I might end up liking him more.

But that is exactly where SE is taking Karsa.

Think about how much of a douche he was when he left his village. 'May you slay 10,000 children.'

Now, he is acting in revenge for a massacre of a people he hadn't met but 3 days before.

[Illuyankas]

For the last time, Karsa stripped the warrens from the Deragoth and beat down the asses of what were effectively two large fast dogs. We know they use warrens - almost certainly KG, just as the Hounds of Shadow use KE - which is a large part of what makes them a threat, and which just doesn't work against Karsa. It'll take an overpowering physical attacker to kill him. Like, oh, a third of the Ascendants that are left.

I like Karsa. I like that he's a douchbag. I'm waiting for the comeuppance for the whole rape and pillaging tour of the Teblor lands that went on in HoC. But he's not invincible.

[Leoman]

Thankyou, Illy.

[Jayblah]

Illuyankas;236512 said:

For the last time, Karsa stripped the warrens from the Deragoth and beat down the asses of what were effectively two large fast dogs. We know they use warrens - almost certainly KG, just as the Hounds of Shadow use KE - which is a large part of what makes them a threat, and which just doesn't work against Karsa. It'll take an overpowering physical attacker to kill him. Like, oh, a third of the Ascendants that are left.

I like Karsa. I like that he's a douchbag. I'm waiting for the comeuppance for the whole rape and pillaging tour of the Teblor lands that went on in HoC. But he's not invincible.

The problem I have here is that KG, which presumably the Deragoth would be ensorceled in, is Elder. Is Karsa also immune to Elder magic then?

Also; when Karsa moves beyond "I don't rape anymore" as an opener to be used on women, I think I'll like him as well. Listen, its pretty clear that alot of my gripes regarding Karsa are meant to be humorous and tongue-in-cheek. My personal opinion thus far is that he's boring and simply a vehicle for delivering badass combat scenes into our brains. Beyond that, he's bland.

[Illuyankas]

He broke through a Tellann ritual to free that Jaghut in HoC, so he's immune to at least one Elder warren, and most likely the rest.

And hey, it's not like you have to like every character in a series. I for one would like to see Kruppe die in a horrible horrible way. I imagine that Karsa will get more falliable as the series continues, anyway.