[Mentalist]

Quick Ben had a very general knowledge of how to use Holds.
Im discounting the Letherii, b/c they aren't really aware of what's going on in the Pantheon, not to mention they only know about the Holds.
Bottle on the other hand, shows nearly intimate understandng of the Holds--during the confrontation with the letherii, he was the one correcting QB's machinations, the Eres'al just fed them both raw power.... and being close to Fiddler, he's aware of what's happening in the Deck as well....All in all, I don't see a lot of other candidates once the Errant gets it....

[Aptorian]

It seems pretty much every mage we meet "knows stuff". It doesn't sound like there are universities of thaumaturgic learning around, so besides having teachers like Agayala, the mages seem to pick up things at random from their warrens or perhaps through a sixth sense.

I'm sure Deadsmell, that Dal Honese shaman, Tay and many other people involved in the Malazan Empires buisness all know what holds are and can do.

When we've seen Warren users and their reaction to Hold rituals, they are showing distress or fear, not because the holds are this forgotten terror, but because of the size of the unwieling. Any one would back up when a force strong enough to detroy everything for miles around is unleashed.

[BridgeBurner]

Nice stirring up, Abyss

I like the idea, but I want to see Fiddler command a few Gods and order them to sit up first. Paran did, and got away with it.

[Abyss]

OT, but the 'problem' with Holds is the sheer raw power and tendency to detonate to person using them.

My point is not that Fid must or will 'replace' Paran. What i'm wondering is whether the Azath, Deck or another related force of balance is keeping a powerful player very well hidden, but in position to influence events. Consider that at the moment, Tavore's army alone is linked to Hood (QB), Shadow (generally plus Cotillion via Lostara), Oponn (Corabb), The Wolves (Perish), Trake/Fener (Stormy, Gesler whatever is going on there), D'rek (Bana), the Eres (Bottle), Mael (Withal, assuming he rejoined them post RG, which would then also includeDarkness via Sandalath)... even before we get to Paran's Host, the 14th is virtually a moving convergence of powers opposing the Crip God. So, IF there is a 'balance' elemental force or something out there, maybe it's put an obvious force, being Paran, but also a subtle one, Fiddler, in the field, a 'mere' soldier (albeit former Bridgeburner and the best sapper in the world) who's directly on the path to having a crossbow launched cusser pointed at the CG's heart.

After all, who says 'there can be only one' Master of the Deck? Gods have, that we've seen, Champions, Mortal Swords, Sheild Anvils, Destriants, High Priests, Knights, etc etc etc. Houses/Holds can have a whole other set of representative powers, mortal or ascendant. The Wolf Gods had two of each, yet 'the Sisters' whoever they were in BLOOD FOLLOWS, has had a single Mortal Sword...

It's trite that what we think we know about the 'rules' of the books' world is way up for change where SE makes it happen.

So if the forces of balance or whatever decide they need another representative on the ground, Fid would be a likely candidate.

- Abyss, could write a frikkin treatise.

[Aptorian]

I hate this Fiddler is destined/chosen theory but the "power behind" stuff is interesting.

Who/what chooses/causes a Master of the Deck?

I don't think of the Azath as sentient (even though it is described as such) more as an automated power, part of the whole magic/world system. The same with the Deck of Dragons and the houses. It all seems like a natural system, an artificial biologic reaction to events that occur.

If a Master is truly chosen deliberatly, the obvious two personalities you'd point a finger to is Kru'll or Mocra. We didn't even know that warrens could be aware before this book. Before I'd have believed that Kru'll caused Paran becoming Master. But what if it is Mocra?

If it is Mocra, and Fiddler was ment for anything, anything what so ever, I think Mocra would have appeared in Fids head just like what happened to Seren.

[Abyss]

Aptorian;225381 said:

...But what if it is Mocra?

If it is Mocra, and Fiddler was ment for anything, anything what so ever, I think Mocra would have appeared in Fids head just like what happened to Seren.

Fid's not a mage. He's been around enough mages that if he was, that talent would have been shown. Instead, we have various refs to him having 'hunches', and his affinity for the deck. Nothing like what happened to Seren.


- Abyss, does however like the notion that Mokra is linked to an elemental power.

[Crow Clan Baby]

He's not a mage, but he is definitely something. Even as far back as GotM, his second appearance (but first by name), Tattersail (I think) muses that he's someone with some kind of natural power or talent. It's definitely been there from the very beginning.

It would be typical of bloody Erikson to end up outing him as some kind of agent of the CG, though, wouldn't it?

[Aptorian]

Abyss;225384 said:

Fid's not a mage. He's been around enough mages that if he was, that talent would have been shown. Instead, we have various refs to him having 'hunches', and his affinity for the deck. Nothing like what happened to Seren.

- Abyss, does however like the notion that Mokra is linked to an elemental power.

I ment Mocra would show itself to Fid, if it was Mocra that had chosen fid for a role in a game of its making.

I wonder, people who have an affinity to the deck, like Fid or tattersail, where does that come from? Is it only mages that can read the deck properly? It's never been implied that a warren is needed...

[Abyss]

Aptorian;225400 said:

...
I wonder, people who have an affinity to the deck, like Fid or tattersail, where does that come from? Is it only mages that can read the deck properly? It's never been implied that a warren is needed...

Given Fid and the merchant's wife in DG, apparently anyone with the talent can do it. Note that in GotM Tayshrenn, arguably one of the most powerful mages around, claimed very little skill with the Deck.

- Abyss, enjoys having a beer on the deck.

[Mentalist]

You know, after RG I'm not so sure about the "two Mortal swords for the wolves" thing... I think the Perish were chosen past the massacre of Grey Swords in Lether.....

but the idea itself is intriguing....Fid's definetely still has big things ahead of him.....

[Bonehunter]

But weren't the Perish performing a two year ritual in advance of Tavore's army? One would have to assume they were around before that, but I don't know where in the time frame they align with Toc's army getting slaughtered in Lether. I think there were probably two concurrant armies of the wolves.

[q21]

One of the things which strikes me as most interesting about Fiddler is his ability to seemingly mix order and chaos. I don't mean magic, as has been pointed out - Fid is not a mage. The Deck of Dragons is a very ordered system of houses and subsequent heirachies and every other reader of the deck we've seen is very meticulous, precise and ordered when they try to use the deck. Fiddler on the other hand plays games where he makes up the rules as he goes. About the only more random way to read a deck is to thow it up in the air and see what comes down.

Also is status as the best sapper in the world supports this idea. Explosives are by the very nature chaotic things and yet Fiddlers use of them is organised. Most of the sappers we've seen simply thow their munitions and hope for the best, except when given specific instructions to the contrary. Fiddler (admittedly with the help of Hedge) uses modified crossbows and insane techniques (the drum) to get the munitions to do what he wants. Thus imposing order on an otherwise chaostic system.

Not sure how meaningful this is, but in a setting where the concepts of order and chaos are genrally kept separate it intrigues me that there should be a converence of a kind of them in Fiddler.

[Mentalist]

I'm going to diasgree with you ever so slightly on two points

1) tossing up cards randomly in the air--it's been done around Kalam in DG. results were spectacular

2) i'm not buying the whole "munitions is chaos idea", it's far too simplistic. remember that magic=chaos, and the munitions react VERY violently with magic (just another reason why Spindle is clearly insane--as if the hairshirt wasn't enough). I believe (pet theory) that the munitions are somhow related to otataral (sp?), but of course, untill we know more that's just empty speculation....


EDIT
@ Bonehunter--the timeline is one of the weaker points of MBotF, but I believe that the Grey Sword massacre is about 2 years prior to the meeting of Bonehunters and Perish... meaning immediately following the loss of Grey Swords, the Wolves anointed the Grey Shields in their place...

[Aptorian]

You mean Grey Helms... right? or something.

[Mentalist]

Yeah, Grey Helms, my bad... Someone here once said "what's next? Grey shields?" and apparently it stuck with me...

[Aptorian]

I remember someone pointing out that helm could be a nautical term, meaning the Perish are the Wolf Navy.

[Crow Clan Baby]

Just on my HoC re-read, and yesterday I came to the scene where Bottle does a divination. Bit of an eye-opener this one, as it's blatantly obvious that not only does Fid wind up setting up the divination correctly, but he also reads the damn thing.

He recognises that it's earth-aspected, correctly identifies a need for "more than just what anchors the power", places the doll in the correct position, correctly identifies it as representing the Rope rather than Hood, correctly notices that just the shadow is moving, correctly identifies the reason why, and correctly identifies who it represents and who the target it.

[Abyss]

Crow Clan Baby;225981 said:

Just on my HoC re-read, and yesterday I came to the scene where Bottle does a divination...not only does Fid wind up setting up the divination correctly, but he also reads the damn thing....

I always figured this was due to Fid's long experience hanging around QB and the other Bridgeburner mages, but in the context of the above discussion, that IS a different spin on it.

- Abyss, spin doctor...

[Cougar]

It certainly seems that Fid has an inate understanding of divination, of the cards and the deck etc.

In some respects he seems to be the man in the middle all the time, or like a link, or fulcrum for power and powerful events and characters, how many times is Fiddler at ground zero when some critical juncture is reached, how many times is it something he does or decides or is involved with that has further reaching consequences.

I've already said why I thought he might be Soldier of HHL, but it's possible he occupies a different position, either that we haven't seen or that we don't understand.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Crow Clan Baby;225981 said:

Just on my HoC re-read, and yesterday I came to the scene where Bottle does a divination. Bit of an eye-opener this one, as it's blatantly obvious that not only does Fid wind up setting up the divination correctly, but he also reads the damn thing.

It's not as if that is an isolated incident. Fiddler performed de facto deck readings constantly in GotM, though he called them card games. Fiddler's powers of divination have been a constant throughout the series, though his occult powers were strongest in GotM. He sensed the assassination of Paran for no apparent reason, for example, and he wasn't playing cards at the time.