Malazan Empire: I just loved the end! - Malazan Empire

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I just loved the end!

#21 Guest_stonesnake_*

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 08:21 AM

quote:
She has to survive incredibly harsh conditions by prostituting herself to one man after another, and she's supposed to come away, what - sweet and innocent?



See, that's where I would slightly disagree with you. I admit, I felt a lot of sympathy for her at the beginning of DG. She was an innocent girl thrown into a bad situation. But I lost all respect for her because of her reaction to that situation. She didn't have to prostitute herself to survive. She chose to prostitute herself to survive. Had she refused to prostitute herself, she would still have survived. Baudin would have made sure of it. Ok, she didn't know that, but part of making heroic decisions lies in not knowing...

Sure, there were a lot of dangers out there that she minimized or avoided by her actions. She and Baudin and Heboric didn't have to worry about having their feet rot off from being chained in the bilges, because she slept with the guard. But that wasn't an avoidance of a certain fate, it was an avoidance of a possible fate. Not everyone chained down there had problems. Felisin slept with the guards not because it was necessary, but because it was easier.

And that's my major problem with her character. I like heroic characters, whether they are tragic heroes or happy ones. Felisin's not heroic. She doesn't strive against her troubles, she surrenders to them on the condition that they let her live. At any given point, she always takes the easy way out. I never get to read a part where I say to myself, "Wow, that was tough. I don't know if I would have been able to do that." I'm never impressed or inspired by her actions. Frankly, the only thing I can think of where she did something I thought was worthwhile was getting Heboric transferred to an easier job. And even that wasn't completely selfless.

I'm not saying I wish she were different; I think she was a brilliant character. Not everyone can be Karsa Orlong, struggling against every facet of existence. If she had been a standard fantasy heroine, struggling stubbornly against her fate, it would have been a less interesting book. Her bitter surrender to every hardship that comes her way is fascinating, and makes DG a better book. It's just not particularly likeable, IMO.

I am extremely glad SE wrote her the way he did. Brilliant writing. But at the same time, I'm glad she's gone. If I met Baudin in a bar, I'd buy him a drink. If I met Heboric in a bar, I'd be honored to talk politics, philosophy, or religion with him, and I'd buy him a drink. If I met Felisin in a bar, I'd excuse myself after the initial introductions, (after about the second bitter, cutting remark on her part) wander away, buy myself a drink, and thank every god in the Malazan pantheon that I didn't have to hang out with her anymore.

As an aside, I agree with you, Longhorn. The fact that Tavore kills her sister and doesn't realize it is brilliant. Great denial of expectations, and it makes Felisin's death more powerful. And somehow, SE manages to pull it all together at the end into a great tragedy. I'm still not sure how. If you'd asked me in DG if I thought Felisin was a tragic character, I'd have said no. Mainly because she brings so much of her tragedy on herself. Sure, her initial circumstance is tragic. Young girl gets sent to the slave mines. Bummer. But every other thing that happens is just a result of her gnawing away at her own soul. So I would have never picked her as a valid tragic character.

But somehow, she is.

Great writing.
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#22 Guest_Dakkareth_*

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Posted 17 November 2004 - 11:49 AM

quote:
The language you use, man... beautiful!


Posted Image you posted that while I was still typing.

Anyway, MO, Quick Ben is Twelvesouls, not 9. Not sure, if you were referring to that, but still. And unlike Laseen Ammanas seems a little too mad to give in. OTOH that may just be a facade. Cotillion's speeches in HoC seem to imply something along these lines ...
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#23 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 11:05 AM

*reels from waves of angry bitterness heading his way from MO in regards to a certain empress of a certain empire*
OK, well I never knew that. Do the people on this-here forum have a back up for making such a claim? Real proof is what I'm talking about. Nothing in the books (as I read it anyway) points to her being a mage, but it's possible I guess.
Just to get you upset MO - Do you reckon she'll be after QB soon? as far as I can make out, he is the most powerful mage in the world (or perhaps second, after Kruppe) and she knows he was somehow involved in Kalams attempt to assassinate her. Doesn't she?
Do you think she will succeed? Are we going to see the death of QB in Bonehunters? Oh, I'm gonna stop, I'm upsetting myself now!
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#24 User is offline   Monoch Ochem 

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 04:40 AM

I think the one who beat her up did just that (one of the Crimson Guard, I think). But my real bitterness was that she deserved Dragnipur...not just death....which is REALLY too bitter of me. Posted Image
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#25 User is offline   Monoch Ochem 

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Posted 17 November 2004 - 06:54 AM

quote:
QB is far from being the most powerful mage in the straight forward meaning of the word - someone like Tayshrenn has a lot more "brute" magical power but lacks QB's cunning and diversity.



Agreed there. Tattersail said he was the best she'd ever seen, though not the most powerful. She said he was clever. 9 of Seven Cities' surviving mages holed up in there's gotta say something!

The Bridgeburners were inseparable from Whiskeyjack and that much Laseen knew. She didn't bargain on the rest of the army though. That's what probably reigned her in. Besides, there was only over a thousand of the BBs left.

As for Kellanved and Laseen working together, judging from the Hounds' gambit with that cavalry (and the surrounding villages), I'd say he's in no mood for alliances or forgiving past slights. I doubt there's an alliance.
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#26 User is offline   Monoch Ochem 

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 09:13 AM

But does it really matter IH? Either way it's still indiscriminate murder...and that was Malazan policy. I'm not saying I'm a fan of Kellanved but Laseen is the flavour of the month. Darujhistan would have suffered the same fate...Turban Orr (or what's his name) would have deserved it but not everyone.
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#27 Guest_stonesnake_*

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 09:23 AM

Agreed. The tragic ending was great. I was quite impressed. I didn't care much for Felisin... she was a very well written character, and SE did a lot of good work showing her personality and development, but she was absolutely unlikeable. So when it got to the end of the book, and she died, I was surprised that he was able to make me care as much as I did about her.

Her death scene was extremely touching, a real triumph by SE.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm still one of those people who are rabidly in the "Felisin was a raging bitch" camp. At least for Deadhouse Gates. In House of Chains she's less of a bitch, but still wasn't a character I could empathize with.

But somehow, SE managed to pull pity out of my heart for her at the end. I was amazed.

Anyone else a little thrown by the sea that came back to Raraku? Was there an explanation for that that I missed? My pet theory right now is that the Nascent opened and drained back into Raraku, but I really have no idea. Any other suggestions for that sudden arrival of a lot of water? Other than "Raraku's memory just brought it back." ?
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#28 User is offline   graller 

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 03:43 PM

One thing I picked up on a second read of HOC is that the goddess had been controlling / manipulating Felisin in DHG. When she enters heboric's tent and the goddess's control is interrupted she references the man she sold herself to in the mines with hatred...implying the goddess was controlling her then...interesting revision of history there.
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#29 User is offline   Matrim 

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 03:29 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Stonesnake:
Agreed. The tragic ending was great. I was quite impressed. I didn't care much for Felisin... she was a very well written character, and SE did a lot of good work showing her personality and development, but she was absolutely unlikeable. So when it got to the end of the book, and she died, I was surprised that he was able to make me care as much as I did about her.

Her death scene was extremely touching, a real triumph by SE.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm still one of those people who are rabidly in the "Felisin was a raging bitch" camp. At least for Deadhouse Gates. In House of Chains she's less of a bitch, but still wasn't a character I could empathize with.

But somehow, SE managed to pull pity out of my heart for her at the end. I was amazed.


Well said! I share your sentiments about Felisin and her death. I didn't like Felisin as a person but her death made me very sad like very few books have managed to do.
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#30 User is offline   Imperial Historian 

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 03:49 PM

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I find the storyline improbable now that I think of it. They were nobles, yes...but Paran was in Lorn's service. He was not just a soldier but part of Laseen's elite conspirators before he felt betrayed. Why should House Paran not have been spared? They'd proven themselves through Ganoes and Tavore. Surely Felisin's salvation could have been procured much sooner. Tavore decided to use Felisin as a sham. She was to be seen to suffer with everyone else...an unnecessary risk in her ruthless scheming. And it went horribly wrong.


But as far as tavore new at teh time, paran was suspecte dof being involved in lorn's death, in fact i think it mentions she thought his neglection of duty directly caused it. also he was an outlaw as far as teh empire was concerned, tavore may not have known teh truth about teh outlawing til after the cull.
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#31 User is offline   Monoch Ochem 

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Posted 15 November 2004 - 10:47 AM

Let me hasten to gently correct you before you get a 'more urgent' reply from someone else, TS. Posted Image Word has it in this-here Forum that the Surly old b*tch actually IS a mage. The corpse thing with Kalam, the fact that the Claw (which she created) is steeped in sorcery, the fact that the Imperial Warren opens up into her throneroom...dunno how wise that one is though. Mage or not, is it wise to have a warren used by more than just Malazans open up in your 'office'.

She certainly had a lot of them murdered but she's probably a mage too. Suits her stinking character just right when you think of it....the hypocrisy of trying to absolve yourself by ascribing the reprehensible aspects of yourself to others. I'm a mage and a b*tch so lets kill all the mages to make me a better person......the fact that I eliminate powerful threats to my rulership is only a convenient consequence Posted Image....right.
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#32 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 08:41 AM

Oh yeah, I bet Rake would have just swatted her aside like a bothersome fly!
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#33 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 11:36 AM

Yeah, why Coltaine put up with those nobles is beyond me!
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#34 User is offline   Folken 

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Posted 05 November 2004 - 02:39 PM

I know how u feel Posted Image, I choked when Felisin goes "All I wanted to know was why you didn't love me sister when I alawys loved u. I guess thats all i wanted to know" Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

They should make a crying emoticon lol
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#35 Guest_recked_it_*

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 06:35 PM

yeah me too. I hated her. ungrateful little bitch. Kind of like silverfox, dont like her much either.
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#36 User is offline   McLovin 

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 06:09 AM

@pantheon:

Felisin (who, at the time, is little more than a kid) gets sent off to a penal mining colony in the back end of nowhere without any explanation, and she's supposed to be grateful? She has to survive incredibly harsh conditions by prostituting herself to one man after another, and she's supposed to come away, what - sweet and innocent? I thought Felisin's characterization as the "ungrateful bitch" was far more believable and lent even more tragic force to DG.

As to the conclusion of HOC, I did enjoy how SE kept denying the reader the expected payoff of the Tavore/Felisin conflict. Felisin knowingly marching to her own death. No big swordfight, just one blow. The irony of Tavore "protecting" Felisin by sending her down a path that will ultimately lead to her death at Tavore's own hand. And the parting knife-twist, Tavore never realizes who she has killed (at least, not yet). I thought the Felisin storyline was probably the best and most tragic so far (I loved the Chain of Dogs too, but thought the ending was perhaps a wee bit overdone). Anyway, that's my two cents.
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#37 User is offline   Matrim 

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 11:31 AM

Err...if Tavore had just twisted her thumbs she would be killed together with her family, including Felisin. It's not as if the cull was her idea for fun or something. It was Laseen's idea, IIRC, Tavore just executed it perfectly. Dunno why but I actually like Tavore and her cold efficiency.
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#38 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 03 November 2004 - 11:27 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Talamandas:
I thought that the tragic part was great as well... in a sad way...
I did feel that a big battle could have been really interesting.. but that is besides the point (in my opinion).


That could have easily added another few chapters... Not necessarily a bad thing mind...
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#39 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 18 November 2004 - 11:00 AM

I did like the scene with Kalam at the end of DHG though. I think it gave some valuable insight to her character, even though she wasn't there. Only a writer such as Erikson could do such a thing. I still wouldn't mind someone giving her what for though. Perhaps Paran, when he fully realises his powers could do something. Perhaps in revenge for what she did to his family.
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#40 User is offline   Monoch Ochem 

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Posted 12 November 2004 - 08:52 AM

I think they were overthrown before the actual cull was set into motion. Don't recall exactly how father Paran died but mother committed suicide.

Given what Felisin had to go through...she was only a girl. She hadn't known a hard life. Next thing she's shacked and imprisoned. The horrors she witnessed, her parents' death, the cold/hunger/stench/violence/rape then a life of prostitution....and all this time she felt as if her sister did this because she hated her; a hatred that she couldn't understand. A part of Felisin was destroyed.

I find the storyline improbable now that I think of it. They were nobles, yes...but Paran was in Lorn's service. He was not just a soldier but part of Laseen's elite conspirators before he felt betrayed. Why should House Paran not have been spared? They'd proven themselves through Ganoes and Tavore. Surely Felisin's salvation could have been procured much sooner. Tavore decided to use Felisin as a sham. She was to be seen to suffer with everyone else...an unnecessary risk in her ruthless scheming. And it went horribly wrong.

Well, there's no trepidation in reading about her in the future. If she lives, I'll just think her lucky. If she dies then she gets her just deserts.

MT SPOILERS
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Preda Unuttal Hebaz was a completely wasted life though. I'd have loved to see her in action before the damned sorcery blasted everyone. Posted Image
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