[Jorram]

I really don't get the whole business with what exactly Clip possesses that is so extraordinary.

Now, APPARENTLY he opened the gate to Kurald Galain via his rings-chain-garrotte thing.

However, the things with this gate have been unclear for a long time now.
1) It was first claimed around MoI that the gate to KG was closed by MD, that she had isolated herself from her children and set them out, etc, etc.
2) After having conversed with Draconus, Paran discovered that the gate to Kurald Galain is actually hidden in Dragnipur.
3) Meanwhile Andii in MoI WERE accessing Kurald Galain like it was a no-problem-everyday-thing. Not too sure on this point, but I remember Korlat not just USING KG's power but actually leading WJ through KG. Maybe it's a false memory.
4) BUT we still have Sandalath who most certainly did lead Corlo, Iron Bars, etc through Kurald Galain in MT. I'm 100% on that.

Up until now - whats with this gate in the end? Is it open, is it closed, is it possible to go to KG without a gate? If MD's isolated herself, then it shouldn't be. Are Andii accessing only some threshold to KG? What exactly IS in Dragnipur?

5) Come Clip, who, like I said, obviously opened a gate to KG with his chain and it seemed like Ruin couldn't do so (else why would he keep Clip at all).
6) Random Nimander's thoughts during his whining sessions seem to reveal his beloved urging him to go find "the one who keeps the gate" instead of searching for Rake (a task apparently considered already pointless by Drift Avalii Andii). It is made clear that there is some prophecy or somesuch regarding this keeper of the Gate, and it most likely regards Clip as Nimander's memories are triggered by a ghost sound resembling Clip's chain opening the portal (probably at the same time).

Now, I don't know about you, but I am totally at a loss about what can and what cannot normal Andii and Rake and Ruin do, in terms of fashioning gates to KG, what gate does Clip keep and what gate does Dragnipur keep.

Is it possible that Clip is deemed "keeper of the gate" because of his ability to fashion a gate to Starvald Demelain from KG? However, in light of Andii history we know, shouldnt it be actuallty EASIER for them to access Starvald Demelain, given that it's the warren they turned to, after being repelled from MD? And why should this gate have significance to DA Andii anyway, given that they seem to be the bunch that renounces draconean currents in Andii society?

Now back to Refugium and SD gates in the first place. I just reread the first scene in the Refugium (in MT) and I still dont get shit. According to Ulshun Prahl, his clan got in the Refugium a long time ago when the gates were still active and "a lot of beasts were coming out from them" (quote not exact). From his dialogue with Udinaas, it seems the case that their Bonecaster's sacrifice somehow:
a) created the Refugium as such, trapping the Imass in place
held the gates closed

now, regarding (a), this seems to contradict Emroth's statement about how the Refugium was created - she seemed to suggest that already dead Imass somehow lingered in a pocket mini-warren, hidden in the sleeves of the otherwise empty of beings Jaghut underworld.

regarding (, I don't understand the chronology of events. In the same dialogue Ulshun Prahl says that the mix-bloods (draconean soletaken + draconean EG) closed the gates. Now, this seems illogical. Why would the mix-bloods close the gate, if the Bonecaster had closed it already. Or, if the chronology is reverse, why would the Bonecaster close the gate, if the mix-bloods had closed it already?

there was also some rambling about a road that starts from nowhere but comes here, that I didn't quite connect to anything in reality.

All in all, I don't understand the Refugium at all. How was it created, why was it linked to SD, being just a pocket of Jaghut underworld? How and when was it populated, when and why did the Soletaken close the gates (they seemed to be wanting to use them, as of RG).

About Clip.. I already said enough

So.. any thoughts on all this confusion of mine is very welcome

[Aptorian]

Not having my books around me this is just going to be my random thoughts on what you're asking.

Anyone with the know how can probably enter KG, it is after all an active warren/world onto itself, the first after Chaos and sided along SD.

You're not wrong Korlat walks through Darkness with WJ in MoI. About the MT thing I don't know if it counts because I think the darkness that Korlo accessed was just a fragment of KG caught by Gothos Ritual, just like everything else. That also explain's why they can only travel so far.

What's inside the wagon inside the sword? It's hard to say, as I remember it's just referred to as the gate into Darkness. But what the wagon is dragging away from chaos is in my opinion Darkness it self, MD. This of course doesn't work well with the discription that she's hidden herself away in the deepest darkest fathoms of darkness, never to come back, so that she won't be eaten by the Matron Deathspell and the Universe won't come to a premature end.

Clip is supposed to be MDs new favorite, maybe she's acting directly through him, maybe he hears her thoughts like no other Andii has done for a long long time or maybe he's just a big fat liar poseing as something he's not for reasons not yet disclossed. CG agent? Scorned Andii out for misplaced revenge?... I don't know but I like him in a Kallor-sory of way

I think he's the new Mortal Sword of Darkness if I'm not mistaken, which is, correct me if I'm wrong, the old hold equivelant of the Knight. There's some obvious Rake vs. Clip things building up in RG.

Regarding Nimander and Phaed I don't know, in my opinion their entire story in RG sucked and I have absolutly no wish to hear anymore about the pathetic creatures from DA, they should just have left them to die on the island... no wonder Rake doesn't care. Too bad SE has said Nimander is a character under development, hope he grows some wits before TtH.

The Refugium, which I really wanted to be placed inside Kru'lls heart originally, I think it's just some random pocket warren carved out by the minds of a long dead tribe of Imass (as Udinass of FW says in MT), it should have disappeared but the finnest kept it alive and saved it from fading away.

The only thing I remember being interesting about the Imass and the gates was the Bonecaster that left them there and tried to seal the gates. I don't know why but for some reason the Imass just can't see a gate, rift or creature out of the ordinary with out trying to destroy or stop it. The openings were a part of Kru'lls fashioning of the warrens and the Imass Bonecaster apparently hurt the warrens in her stupid attempt at closing the gates.

EDIT:

Something occured to me, if the closing of the SD gate was so damn inportant, why didn't the Bonecaster just do a Legana Bredd(sp?) and sacrifice the souls of some of the Imass at hand and that way save the rest of the tribe from dying out? Or could it only be done from the inside?

[Abyss]

I thought the point wasthat Clip was (or claimed to be) MD's agent, and the only one who could open the gate through KG to get to SD specifically. Ruin didn't know the where/how of it.

It seems to moi that the entire Shake and Nimander plotlines were just set up for the Black Coral storyline in the TTH. And i agree, they were otherwise the weakest and most disconnected of the book, but i have faith in the SE. Trust in the SE. The SE is good. The SE is great...

- Abyss, oooh, Kool-Aid! Thank you Mr. Erikson!!!

[Obdigore]

Jorram;207998 said:

I really don't get the whole business with what exactly Clip possesses that is so extraordinary.

Now, APPARENTLY he opened the gate to Kurald Galain via his rings-chain-garrotte thing.

However, the things with this gate have been unclear for a long time now.
1) It was first claimed around MoI that the gate to KG was closed by MD, that she had isolated herself from her children and set them out, etc, etc.
2) After having conversed with Draconus, Paran discovered that the gate to Kurald Galain is actually hidden in Dragnipur.
3) Meanwhile Andii in MoI WERE accessing Kurald Galain like it was a no-problem-everyday-thing. Not too sure on this point, but I remember Korlat not just USING KG's power but actually leading WJ through KG. Maybe it's a false memory.
4) BUT we still have Sandalath who most certainly did lead Corlo, Iron Bars, etc through Kurald Galain in MT. I'm 100% on that.

Up until now - whats with this gate in the end? Is it open, is it closed, is it possible to go to KG without a gate? If MD's isolated herself, then it shouldn't be. Are Andii accessing only some threshold to KG? What exactly IS in Dragnipur?

5) Come Clip, who, like I said, obviously opened a gate to KG with his chain and it seemed like Ruin couldn't do so (else why would he keep Clip at all).
6) Random Nimander's thoughts during his whining sessions seem to reveal his beloved urging him to go find "the one who keeps the gate" instead of searching for Rake (a task apparently considered already pointless by Drift Avalii Andii). It is made clear that there is some prophecy or somesuch regarding this keeper of the Gate, and it most likely regards Clip as Nimander's memories are triggered by a ghost sound resembling Clip's chain opening the portal (probably at the same time).

Now, I don't know about you, but I am totally at a loss about what can and what cannot normal Andii and Rake and Ruin do, in terms of fashioning gates to KG, what gate does Clip keep and what gate does Dragnipur keep.

Is it possible that Clip is deemed "keeper of the gate" because of his ability to fashion a gate to Starvald Demelain from KG? However, in light of Andii history we know, shouldnt it be actuallty EASIER for them to access Starvald Demelain, given that it's the warren they turned to, after being repelled from MD? And why should this gate have significance to DA Andii anyway, given that they seem to be the bunch that renounces draconean currents in Andii society?

Now back to Refugium and SD gates in the first place. I just reread the first scene in the Refugium (in MT) and I still dont get shit. According to Ulshun Prahl, his clan got in the Refugium a long time ago when the gates were still active and "a lot of beasts were coming out from them" (quote not exact). From his dialogue with Udinaas, it seems the case that their Bonecaster's sacrifice somehow:
a) created the Refugium as such, trapping the Imass in place
held the gates closed

now, regarding (a), this seems to contradict Emroth's statement about how the Refugium was created - she seemed to suggest that already dead Imass somehow lingered in a pocket mini-warren, hidden in the sleeves of the otherwise empty of beings Jaghut underworld.

regarding (, I don't understand the chronology of events. In the same dialogue Ulshun Prahl says that the mix-bloods (draconean soletaken + draconean EG) closed the gates. Now, this seems illogical. Why would the mix-bloods close the gate, if the Bonecaster had closed it already. Or, if the chronology is reverse, why would the Bonecaster close the gate, if the mix-bloods had closed it already?

there was also some rambling about a road that starts from nowhere but comes here, that I didn't quite connect to anything in reality.

All in all, I don't understand the Refugium at all. How was it created, why was it linked to SD, being just a pocket of Jaghut underworld? How and when was it populated, when and why did the Soletaken close the gates (they seemed to be wanting to use them, as of RG).

About Clip.. I already said enough

So.. any thoughts on all this confusion of mine is very welcome

A) Apparently is right, imo. I maintain that he is just a showman, and was distracting people from what he is really doing by using his garrotte.

Ok, as to the Refuge... it seems to almost be a pocket warren, floating free. The Elient, imo, closed the gates to it from other places (like the dragon realm...), whereas the bonecaster that sacraficed herself was to seal a tear (like the one at Morn).

I also think that those Imass in the refuge did not make the ritual, and so wandered off, and became trapped in the refuge, the still-flowering of the Imass's power and age and place in the world (Wu).

As to the Andii, they can still access the warren's power, apparently, but cannot enter the warren itself (this seems to be refuted by whiskeyjack and korlat, but I treat that as a gotmism even though it wasn't in gotm).

Edit: @ Apts Edit: Because the Imass are a very duty bound people, and, It seems that fixing those things is a bonecaster's, or exile's duty. Since they seem to have had no exiles at that time, the Bonecaster did what she thought was right.
-SE is all about showing the difference in societies when people are duty-bound, or when they SHOULD be duty-bound but are not.

[Abyss]

I had thought the Imass in the Refugim WERE at the ritual, and had gone all undead and everything, but when their bonecaster sealed the FE link, she inadvertantly tossed them into a stray chunk of SD, in which they forgot they were undead, and were eventually resurrected in RG, the exceptions being Onrack and Kilava's son, whom she apparently hid there, and Rud, who Menandore his there.

As for KG, i figure it's the gate to MD that's locked off in Dragnipur, not the whole warren.

- Abyss, wants to find a stray chunk of Hawaii.

[Brys Beddict]

Maybe just the living areas in KG are cut off? It's an entire realm so it might have something equivalent to cities in it. The place the Tiste Liosan are from seems to have something like temples and such, so it may not be a far stretch to say that cities do exist within the realm. Maybe just those areas are cut off, but paths are still open to allow travel through use of KG.

[Murrin]

First off, though it's true that the Andii in the book can use the Warren of Kurald Galain, it seems to be quite different from the place that Clip has access to. It is likely that the KG used by them is a descendant, or an offshoot, though a more fundamental one than Rashan. Or simply it is that Andii cannot be fully cut off from their Warren, and will always be able to walk the edges of it. What Clip holds is the gate to true Darkness, the Hold itself: the realm he takes them to is not the empty black spaces we see when Korlat traverses Darkness, or when Sandalath takes them through the fragment--it is an entire realm, with its own life residing in it, and Mother Dark, presumably, somewhere in the centre. Clip has somehow become the only Andii since the rebellions and exiles to be allowed a way back in.

The Refugium is an interesting place. I'm not sure I have it all straightened out myself.
The Gate that the mixed-bloods sealed was the gate to Starvald Demelain. The Bonecaster sealed the Twelve Gates--which led to a number of different realms.
The origins of the Refugium are a little unclear. When Udinaas finds it, it is flavoured with Starvald Demelain--like it is a pocket or offshoot of the same. But Emroth and Hedge find it from the Jaghut realm, in Omtose Phellack. The fact that Quick, Trull and Onrack are met there, after they themselves were travelling through the heart of Tellan, gives a further clue. The suggestion in that case seems to be that a pocket of Tellan was sat in Omtose there, near the heart, in the same way that we've seen in the past (the Jaghut Wars--Omtose Phellack was breached many times). But somehow this pocket is also a gate to the Refugium.
The implication, from the references to a 'road', may be that the Refugium is a pocket that sits in some sort of hub, containing the gates to many realms--including Kurald Galain and Starvald Demelain, the twin chambers of the heart--and that, rather than being enclosed, it is somehow open to the other realms, that people who follow the correct path can reach the Refugium and enter the gates. We've seen how it can be reached through Tellan, Omtose Phellack and Shadow.
How the Bentract found it, and how it came to be what it is to them, I have no idea.

[Shurque's biatch]

Murrin;208176 said:

The implication, from the references to a 'road', may be that the Refugium is a pocket that sits in some sort of hub, containing the gates to many realms--including Kurald Galain and Starvald Demelain, the twin chambers of the heart--and that, rather than being enclosed, it is somehow open to the other realms, that people who follow the correct path can reach the Refugium and enter the gates. We've seen how it can be reached through Tellan, Omtose Phellack and Shadow.
How the Bentract found it, and how it came to be what it is to them, I have no idea.

Makes me think of the road to Amber, once you know the way it is obvious, but you can't "accidentally" find it.

[ISTN4249]

ok new though. probably wrong b/c ive just started re-reading Memories of Ice and its impossible after all this time to recall all the nuances (so this might already be explained)


In the mass market ppback (US edition) on page 4 in the prologue, a Jaghut mother is being hunted down. She runs into Kilava. She's just given birth to Ulshan Pral (or whatever his name is. The Jaghut mother is suprised to see Kilava willing to make a deal with the mother to spare her child. At this point it's not told what the deal was. Perhaps it never is in the book


Did Kilava, a powerful bonecaster, use her Tellan magic to create The Refugium, a place where her son could grow up safely? In return for sparing the Jag children, the mother agreed to hid away the Refugium where it would likely never be found? What better spot than sandwiched between Starvald Demalain to which the gates where shut, and the elder Jaghut bridge of death, which had been taken over by Hood's realm?

any veracity?

[Abyss]

Interesting point.

It seems to me that Kilava hiding Pral had to have happened BEFORE the Bonecaster on Leth locked her clan in the Refugium. The Tellan Ritual hadn't happened yet when Kilava met the Seer's mom, while the Imass were already undead when the FE went shapeshifter bugnuts.

So likely that Pral was already hanging out in whatever chunk of SD the Bonecaster sent her clan to, or he joined them later.

Some trick of their collective dream of being alive led to them actually being alive, while the Refugium itself became a place where 'undeath' is reversed, at least for ascendent ghosts like Hedge and T'lan Imass (who are hinted to be ascended undead).

...which also makes me wonder just how dead the three Sisters may actually be. Draconic soletaken ascendents aren't exactly easy to kill when they aren't in an 'anti-death warren'.


- Abyss, ...hmmm...

[D'rek]

I think it sound plausible, though I never really thought Kilava had wanted anything in exchange for the Jaghut giving her kids up, I thought Kilava just did it to spite the soon-to-be-ritualed-Imass. And how would the jaghut mother have enough power left to make the refugium but still be running from the Imass on foot.

 Abyss, on Jul 29 2009, 01:08 PM, said:

It seems to me that Kilava hiding Pral had to have happened BEFORE the Bonecaster on Leth locked her clan in the Refugium. The Tellan Ritual hadn't happened yet when Kilava met the Seer's mom, while the Imass were already undead when the FE went shapeshifter bugnuts.

I forget, what is our running theory on how the Beast Ritual ties into the Refugium again?

The Imass were going to get their Ritual on a couple days after they killed Pannion's mum. The Imass other then Pral were said to be T'lan Imass who didn't realize they were T'lan, thought they were still Imass (except for the Bonecaster), and we never really got much of an explanation on that. This being around the time of the Ritual could be a good explanation for that.

Not sure if the last flight of dragons back into SD could conceivably be before or after this.

 Abyss, on Jul 29 2009, 01:08 PM, said:

Some trick of their collective dream of being alive led to them actually being alive, while the Refugium itself became a place where 'undeath' is reversed, at least for ascendent ghosts like Hedge and T'lan Imass (who are hinted to be ascended undead).

This'd be after Gothos' ritual so no problems there, imo.

 Abyss, on Jul 29 2009, 01:08 PM, said:

...which also makes me wonder just how dead the three Sisters may actually be. Draconic soletaken ascendents aren't exactly easy to kill when they aren't in an 'anti-death warren'.

Well obviously Menandore is going to come back, she was making her own deals with ST and Hood after all. The other 2, well we'll just have to wait and see.

[ISTN4249]

where does it describe the Leth bonecaster locking her tribe in? does it specifically state that the Leth bonecaster created the Ref? i'd like to reread that

d'rek: i was suggesting that Kilava, being a powerful soletaken bonecaster, created the refugium out of tellann, and the Pannion's mother used whatever power she had left to move that shard into a location where it would be extremely difficult to find

This post has been edited by ISTN4249: 29 July 2009 - 05:48 PM

[D'rek]

 ISTN4249, on Jul 29 2009, 01:45 PM, said:

where does it describe the Leth bonecaster locking her tribe in? does it specifically state that the Leth bonecaster created the Ref? i'd like to reread that

I don't think she did, but she lead her clan in it when she was still around (presumably they were short a clan leader) and then she went and sealed the gates.

 ISTN4249, on Jul 29 2009, 01:45 PM, said:

d'rek: i was suggesting that Kilava, being a powerful soletaken bonecaster, created the refugium out of tellann, and the Pannion's mother used whatever power she had left to move that shard into a location where it would be extremely difficult to find

Ah, I could see that, especially if the longevity and undying characteristics of the place were not part of the initial plan. The mother would have to do no more then show Kilava the place so i guess it wouldn't take much power from her at all.