[xhentil]

One thing that caught me, especially towards the end of RG, was Erikson's consistent motif of friendship, love, and tragedy. We see it earlier in the series with Whiskeyjack, Tattersail, Bellurdan, Kulp, Icarium/Mappo and a whole mess of others I'm forgetting. I've always enjoyed this, however, I saw it even more prevelant in RG.

When Tool finds out it was Toc who died and he screams
When Hedge sees Trull dead (that brought me to tears. I loved Trull)
Heck that whole scene in the cave with Trull, Onrack and Clip and Silchas and crew
Beak
Trull and Onrack
Even Fiddler and Gesler's friendship

I think part of it is it's relatable. You love the characters and so do the other characters.

What do you think of this consistent theme? What other ones are out there that have been in most of the books?

[Dolorous Menhir]

SE says in a recent interview that he is writing tragedies.

[Abyss]

Which sort of makes one wonder how/if Shadowthrone and Cotillion will come out of this. A tragic ending would almost have to require a breach in their partnership.


- Abyss, also notes Telorast and Curdle, oh, alas the tragedy to come!

[Dolorous Menhir]

Abyss;195900 said:

Which sort of makes one wonder how/if Shadowthrone and Cotillion will come out of this. A tragic ending would almost have to require a breach in their partnership.

If by "breach," you mean "Cotillion dying," then ok.

[kkyyyssss]

must say the stuff with toc and tool left me completely cold... it was just too much like what happened with the bridgeburners at the end of moi in the tower with lady envy... you can only take so much useless deaths that feel exactly the same before they dont mean anything and feel really contrived... must say that s the only part in the book where i really thought Erikson had made an error of storytelling by plagiaring himself...

Also Tool loosing it and crying? didnt touch me at all... that felt like it was forced on us and left me feeling completely untouched, wich doesnt usually happen with Erikson's writing

Proof of that, even thought i read moi about 6 times, i still get teary eyed everytime i read about itkovian s death.

[panic]

I liked Tool's reaction. Made his resurrection feel very real.


I liked how Hedge acted like he didn't like Trull but when Trull died he reacted very strongly.


I like Quick Ben hinting that Shadowthrone was going to get it for what happened to Kalam.

[Dag]

I find that the scene at the end of MoI, where Tool comes to Toc briefly in his new body to say farewell without revealing who he is, was much more loaded with emotions than Toc's death and Tool's crying.

I don't know... now that Kilava mentioned it, there was actually no scene in RG where I would have to go and get some kleenex to wipe those little stinging tears from the corners of my eyes. (I needed a whole package at the end of the Chain of Dogs, btw.)

Beak's death didn't really touch me - it was obvious from the beginning what would happen to him, and, yes, what kilava calls "SE plagiaring himself", I call "idea recycling" and that actually started in the BH already. But I did like the way SE constructed Beak's character by weawing together small threads of his memory and tying them up to Beak's present actions. Those parts were really well written, and I found his life story much more tragic than his death.

Also, Trull's death didn't bring me to tears - my reaction was something like: "errrm... OK... and now what...?" I understand that there was supposed to be this bond of friendship emerging between Hedge and Trull, which would also explain Hedge's reaction, but for me, it kind of never really came to surface.

To cut it short, I agree about the "motifs of friendship, love and tragedy" being constantly present in SE's books, but... No, I wouldn't agree they were more prevalent in the RG compared to the rest of series.

[xhentil]

Dag;196236 said:

To cut it short, I agree about the "motifs of friendship, love and tragedy" being constantly present in SE's books, but... No, I wouldn't agree they were more prevalent in the RG compared to the rest of series.

Oh I agree. Chain of Dogs and all of MoI take the cake. But I just saw a few that got me. To see Hedge and QB both react to Trull's death... that got me. Those bloody Imass too, so soft hearted. But I wanted to put this out there because once again I see the patterns come around.

It's something I enjoy in SE's writing. Tragedy and grief seem to make the characters.. more real I suppose.

[Abyss]

I'm tempted to crack a joke about all the crying (see Spiderman 3), but Toc and Trull's deaths were very well done i thought.

Toc's was esp tragic in that salvation, the Barghast army, was SO bloody close, and he died saving the children of a race that was basically committing pointless suicide and Torrent, a guy who had shown him nothing but disrespect, and then the extra gut punch of finding out Tool had come all this way to avenge him and just missed saving him instead.

Trull's death didn't have quite the same impact, maybe because being stabbed in the back by a pedophile bureaucrat while cradline his dead brother, was certainly less impressive, but for the character, it fit. After everything that happened because of Rhulad, Trull had fought his way back to forgive and be forgiven. So of course he gets dead.

That said, Hedge's reaction was telling BECAUSE Hedge was so resistant to being friends with anyone, even QB who he had known for like a decade pre-dying. And QB's willingness to act as Hood himself was also telling, given his on/off relation with Hood and gods in general.

Fear never really had enough development for his death to be more than another impact on Trull, altho the 'Edur about to backstab Silchas' irony was pretty heavy.

All of which was to say, these deaths and the themes they carried through in the story worked for me.

- Abyss, needs to watch some mindless cartoons now.

[Tiste Simeon]

Dolorous Menhir said:

If by "breach," you mean "Cotillion dying," then ok.

Nah, he's too sensitive. If anything, Shadowthrone will die, through saving Cotillion...

Tiste Simeon, wonders if Erikson ever reads these threads. And laughs...

[Lather]

Kilava;196041 said:

you can only take so much useless deaths that feel exactly the same before they dont mean anything

ahhhh. war and the human condition, eh?

there are a couple of (well probably more than a couple) of scenes in GotM, one whiskeyjack, one rallick nom, that foreshadow your sentiment, Kilava.


someone in a thread elsewhere was talking about how "common" the grizzled war veteran was as a character in this series. i think you answered that nicely. :cool:

[Tiste Simeon]

Lather said:

someone in a thread elsewhere was talking about how "common" the grizzled war veteran was as a character in this series. i think you answered that nicely. :cool:

I never got people complaining about that. I mean if a bunch of people go through the same very intense, and perhaps traumatic experience, they are all going to emerge bearing similar personality traits. I think that Erikson does the grizzled veteran very well, and that there is enough diversity in these characters for it to make a difference. I mean people like Fiddler and Gesler might seem very similar, but really they aren't. He has written them both very well...

[Lather]

i agree entirely. old war dogs. i mean war war ravages doesn't it? no body does it BETTER than Erikson for me. nobody.

[Abyss]

Plus (and this is constantly overlooked), in RG SE did, imnsho, a very good job of showing, in Tarr, Koryk and Smiles at least, 'young' soldiers almost drunk on the killing and 'power' that comes with being what they are.

We also see, in HoC, TB and RG, various heavies who are in fact 'just grunts' (we also see a few who are obviously smarter than they seem). We've seen Gamet and others who are leaders but are just poor at it in spite of their best efforts. We saw Balm who loses his sh!t every time he gets into action. Etc etc. Pointbeing, for all the 'grizzled, knowledgable vets', we've seen several other types and viewpoints.

- Abyss, gets five o'clock grizzle.

[Sindriss]

100% agree with abyss. The deaths of trull and toc was extremely well written and to me it fitted the book.

[QuickTidal]

Okay, I am gonna say ONE thing here.

The deaths are NOT contrived...these are the Malazan books of the FALLEN remember.

These tomes are meant as a list of those that fell. These characters, probably very near to all of them, will likely die during the course of things. That's the whole point here. It's meant like this: These people did amazing things, but in the end, inevitably, they died. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be rememebred....hence, the books of the fallen.

[LordRake420]

trull's death was well done...very emotional read for me, i had grown attached to trull it seems. his fight with clip and ruin sealed the deal.

[Grimjust Bearegular]

QuickTidal;198049 said:

Okay, I am gonna say ONE thing here.

The deaths are NOT contrived...these are the Malazan books of the FALLEN remember.

These tomes are meant as a list of those that fell. These characters, probably very near to all of them, will likely die during the course of things. That's the whole point here. It's meant like this: These people did amazing things, but in the end, inevitably, they died. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be rememebred....hence, the books of the fallen.

hear hear!

[Thelomen Toblakai]

I agree with Kilava to a certain extent. I believe that the deaths of Fear and Toc were somehow pointless.

I mean to have Fear come all the way through the story and to die so suddenly and needlessley and for what? It seems his only point in RG was to remind Seren of Trull which could have easily been done another way.
Just like Toc's death was needless, if he was to die he should have went down with the Grey Swords rather than come all that way just to die.

[blewin]

uh, yeah, it's about pointless deaths.. always pointless deaths in the series.

But with RG, I agree with what previous posters have said. It seems to have less impact than others, and plot devices have been 'recycled'.

It's pretty clear that there's a parallel between Toc/Tool and Thrull/Onrack pairs, which is FINE, but to have the pairs separated with a death each in the same book (and within days?) just feels... forced. Even for someone like me who tends to miss SE's subtle hints, this plot device is like shoving the emotions down your throat.

Both deaths are pretty in-character. Tool's crying is totally believable. He's married, he's adopted and has children of his own. He's become more human than he was in MoI. I bet Toc's poems will somehow survive as songs to be sung in the generations to come.

Trull's death is partly believable. I don't see how he can be so blinded as to fail to notice the danger approaching from behind. Yes, even with his dead brother in his lap. It'd be more convincing if he detects danger but only to move a second too late, that sort of thing.

Thelomen Toblakai;199353 said:

I agree with Kilava to a certain extent. I believe that the deaths of Fear and Toc were somehow pointless.

I mean to have Fear come all the way through the story and to die so suddenly and needlessley and for what? It seems his only point in RG was to remind Seren of Trull which could have easily been done another way.
Just like Toc's death was needless, if he was to die he should have went down with the Grey Swords rather than come all that way just to die.

How many armies are there that just arrive at the scene to be slaughtered (slaughter not even described), except Toc's?