[Gothos]

So, another topic came to my mind lately...
The ever-present fear of nuclear power these days, it's annoying. We all know where it comes from - at least what is nuclear power's enemies' source of strength - the catastrophe on Czernobyl. Every time there's debate about nuclear power plants, I hear "Czernobyl" every sentence. What. The. Fuck.
While it cannot be denied that what happened there is a terrible tragedy, there are major facts the general populace doesn't know about. I'm not keen on writing a whole essay here so I'll just mention a few:
1) the radiation level beyond the immediate surroundings of the Zone is dwarfed by what was done by the atmospheric detonations of nuclear bombs in the 50s and 60s
2) in fact quite a few inhabbited regions in the world, inculding europe, have larger radioactivity levels than what the explosion created
3) the malfunction, even though it was a major one, could well have been avoided/countermeasured if not for some idiots at the plant
Now, aside from these, there's also things about nuclear powerplants that people don't realise, such as their radioactivity background infuence being HUNDREDS of times lower than, let's say, coal power plants.
Nuclear power is cheap, ever evolving, and promises a great future. While the first reactors that use nuclear fusion instead of fission that also manage to give more energy than they take for operating (they require generating tremendous heat for the fusion to take place), the research has, IMO, WAY too little attention of the general populace, which should be more than interested in the creation of a very strong and safe source of energy that would lift the dependance on coal and oil and the like. Where we get to the next point of this rant.
Oil. Whoever controls the [linet]spice[/linet] oil, controls our destiny. This lucrative position on which oil companies sit could get threathened if nuclear power would get more funds and attention for reaserch, so I would think they're supporting and calling an anti-nuclear propaganda against it, with a loss for humankind.
I wish the world would get more interested in advanced civillian technology, instead of just spending billions on warfare and military-related research. rant over.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

It's true, I dont know what the bloody hell all these activists are going on about when they bitch about nuclear power- I enough about it lazily doing an A-level ffs to realise it's one of the best viable options for energy we have.

Pollution wise it's minimal obviously, the amounts of energy it can put out are huge (especially if we can get a working Tokamak and get fusion going properly), and the risks are tiny, especially considering the higher level of education people working in them in the west (and also the high security) would have.

The only problem is disposing of used up radioactive material, but we could just make a massive stockpile in the middle of Siberia or Antarctica or the outback or something and bury it deep and it'll be ok.

[paladin]

nuclear power is good, as long as it can be protected and run by competent people. people have a fear of it, and rightly so, as radioactive materials are dangerous and deadly, just like a biological weapon.

as far as oil, there are baby steps certain nations can take to become less dependent on big oil/foreign oil. for the us, one is developing better techniques for utilitizing shale oil, of which the us has one of the biggest, if not the biggest, deposits in the world. another for the us would be utilizing new clean coal technologies to utilizing our huge coal deposits, also biggest in the world. coal can also be converted into gas/diesel type formulas and was used extensively at least as far back as ww2 germany.

these types of fuels can be used as stopgaps until we find a new source or people are content with nuclear power...

problem is, "he who controls the gold makes the rules", and guess whos got the gold? the people that stand to lose the most by non-liquid oil based technologies.

[McLovin]

As to fusion power, there's already a huge fusion reactor in the sky whose power we're not taking full advantage of. You can fit out a home for 3kw/day solar power (usu. enough for one household's daily power needs) for about US $20K these days. Given the median US home sales price is about $210K or so these days, that's not a huge add-on expense. But consumers don't want to pay for it. Fossil fuels are just still too cheap. To paraphrase Tom Friedman, until we face severe shortages, we're just not going to move to alternative solutions.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Facts won't change what people fear. And I don't think there are inhabited areas with higher radiation than around Chernobyl. Spend any time in certain areas near to the reactor and you will receive a lethal dose, and quickly.

Here is a really good photoseries about travelling through the Chernobyl area.

http://www.kiddofspe...obyl-revisited/

[Gothos]

Dolorous Menhir;192492 said:

Facts won't change what people fear. And I don't think there are inhabited areas with higher radiation than around Chernobyl. Spend any time in certain areas near to the reactor and you will receive a lethal dose, and quickly.

Here is a really good photoseries about travelling through the Chernobyl area.

http://www.kiddofspe...obyl-revisited/

read my post again. I'm not talking about The Zone.


longhorn: star-emitted energy is indeed a potentially great source of energy, however with the tech available right now it's not efficient and expensive, greatly moreso than nuclear power; possibly if we can use nuclear power to shoot off into the Solar System at an everyday rate, stellar energy will gain a whole lot of usability and effectiveness... b/c as far as I think nuclear power is great, it is still utilizing terribly limited sources...

oh and here we come to the nuclear waste problem. right now, it's true, we're earth-bound, and as such we'd have to be very careful with the stuff... one day perhaps we could do something like, in example, shooting it towards the Sun? or generally into the mind-boggling amount of free space all around us...


edit: I'd like to visit Pripyat one day, there's something about a ghost city...

[Rich the Great]

I remember seeing a documentary (Horizon on BBC2 or something) about Chernobyl. Turns out the actual death toll (directly) for the accident even to this day is 40 odd or ridiculously low, given the kerfuffle everyone made about it. Reminds me of another topic that was on here months ago about science being mixed with ideology. Bollocks really.

I agree with Longhorn that solar power should be utilised, but in conjunction with other renewable power sources (wind, waves etc) to augment nuclear power. I mean, theres only a limited supply of uranium-235 in the world, in a certain length of time we would just face the same problems we are facing today with the future of oil shortages. We should then pour money into research into finding better and more viable ways of energy production.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Rich the Great;192517 said:

I mean, theres only a limited supply of uranium-235 in the world, in a certain length of time we would just face the same problems we are facing today with the future of oil shortages.

Yes, but on the other hand, that's not for aaaages, and therefore not our problem. Let's just ignore the problems and leave it for our grandkids to solve.

[Shinrei]

it's all about using whatever we can to supplement the other

Not one singlething is the answer, but a combination of nuclear, sun, wind, bio, ethanol, natural gas, hydrogen, water, coal, the blood of virgins and good ol' sweet crude.

[caladanbrood]

Shinrei no Shintai;192568 said:

Not one singlething is the answer, but a combination of nuclear, sun, wind, bio, ethanol, natural gas, hydrogen, water, coal, the blood of virgins and good ol' sweet crude.

Aboslutely. I get very frustrated when people say "no, blah is much better than bleh!" A combination of many different energy sources is the only effective long-term answer.

[Cold Iron]

@longhorn: 3kWh/day is nowhere near enough for a household unless you have gas for cooking and heating and hot water. and that defeats the purpose. also residential demand is like a quarter of total usage. cuts can be made in the sector, but not big ones...

@gothos: the problem with nuc waste is not responsible disposal, but irresponsible... past russian disposal is currently contaminating rivers in kyrgystan (read an article ages ago, dont ask for deails)... and a lot of the uranium deposits are in 3rd world countries, who dont have the resources to properly dispose of the waste associated with mining... and shooting it into the sun is rediculous.

@TT: actually, with the increasing demand in india and china, demand may outstrip accessible supply in the next 20 years

and @shin&brood: the combination argument is just governments not willing to commit because they are in the back pockets of big business with oil/coal interests. there are clear advantages to some energy sources over others depending on where in the world you are. governments are dragging their feet.

the bottom line is... the bottom line... until alternative energy is cheaper than fossil fuels, they will continue to be used. no matter what. there is nothing that legislation can do to prevent that...

if only the UN actually had a real purpose...

[Shinrei]

No, the combination argument is that there is no silver bullet that will solve all of our energy problems.

Unfortunately, I agree with your "bottem line", though I wish it weren't true.

[paladin]

speaking of chernobyl.. it was in the news recently that there is a new fungus growing in chernobyl that instead of using sunlight for the photosynthesis procedure it uses radiation

[Morgoth]

Well, solar panel technology is getting more advanced by the day. I would not be surprised if we'll get to a point were that's enough for most household needs. the problem ofc is the huge demands by factories, machinery such as trains and so on, where solar panels wouldn't be enough...

On a more amusing note, Norway has the largest known deposit of [insert chemical name I can't remember here], which supposedly is the main ... ingredient in what is genereally refered to as the next level of nuclear powerplants. God has blessed america? Pah! Norway must be the most spoiled country in the world..

@CI - I could go on and on about how vital the UN is, but alas, this is not the right topic, and I can't be bothered:p

[Cold Iron]

also @rich the great. the proposal that only 40 ppl have died from chernobyl is preposterous. i have seen docos with 100s of kids with thyroid cancer

@shin, you're right, there is no silver bullet, but there are advantages and disadvantages to each, and governments need to be held accountable for ignoring the disadvantages

@morgoth i hate norway. 105NOK for a fucking subway meal sent me running. also, the UN may be vital, but where are they on the first truely global issue? they need more power to be useful

[Morgoth]

Cold Iron;192604 said:

@morgoth i hate norway. 105NOK for a fucking subway meal sent me running.

This be because we make shitloads of money .. compared to the income index, prices in Norway aren't particularly bad

[Gothos]

counting casualties of Czernobyl you should take into account that many people chose to remain where they live and refuse evacuation.

anyways, why shooting nuclear waste into the sun is ridiculous?

[Cold Iron]

chosing to lose what little you have to start again somewhere else is a tough call to make.

and shooting it into the sun is just unfeasibly expensive. not to mention the risk of an explosion during take-off!

[Gothos]

if remaining in the area puts your life at great risk and is sure to bring misery, it's a damn stupid choice to stay. honestly, if you heard "hey guys, this zone is gonna get wtfpwnd by radiation and stuff, get the hell out of here unless you wish a pitiful existance for your children and yourself" would you stay? no bloody way. why would the stay?

that's why I did say "one day", lol. I think reading with understanding is 3rd grade primary school?

it throws us into another topic: interplanetary exploration. personally I don't think you can squeeze much more from conventional drives, any ideas about a new drive technology?

[Cold Iron]

why would they stay? how about my house is now worth -10 rubles and if i want to move i have to

a) walk
beg for food when i get there

and "one day" is a stupid thing to say, when do you want to do this? before or after the planet is repopulated by talking apes? discussing with relevence is a little above 3rd grade, so how long do we need to wait for you to catch up?

as far as i know there are no new drive technologies that are anywhere near realistic that offer substantial advantages. not my best topic, but i do read science/technology news pretty regularly, so i assume i would have heard something. anyone else?