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Okay, before I begin I have to state that I haven't read RG yet. In fact, upon writing this, I will completely avoid the responses until I receive the book and finish it. With that said, while reading MT, a few things concerning the draconic family stuck out during the conversation between Osserc, Menadore and Sukhul. First, it was mentioned that Osserc got busy with someone with 'feathered wings'. This description does not sound draconic, or if so, different from any other draconic form that we've yet seen, or of what I've read. You all may have greater understanding by now of that description. If the being who came out of darkness and mated with Osserc is not a dragon, but has 'feathered wings' who is it? Crone (ewww)? Sukhul also states something to effect that she and the other female draconic forms are split offs from the original. In effect, the original female figure is now divided among the other female figures. She goes on to say that this hasn't worked out real well. She then uses imagery of heads (plural) arising, just as Ancient Near Eastern iconography shows Tiamat, the original chaos dragon. Gnosticism believed that God shed, or birthed, a series of emanations that reflected parts of his being and took on independent lives of their own. Osserc tells us that some beings were generated with fathers, just like emanations (the elder gods who took care of Silchas and Scabandari). There there are the dragons themselves. Looking at the list of dragons given to Udinaas and Feather Witch, three generations of dragons are given. The first original group -includes male and female Eleint and are 'pure-blood' dragons. The second generation are of mixed blood: Anomander, Draconus, Silchas, Scabandari, etc. This generation are all male. The the third generation, the three females Menadore, Sukhul, and Sheltatha, all female. Back to gnosticism, the physical creation emerged from such emanations and salvation was all about returning back to the original source. Interestingly, the path to return was blocked until God sent Christ to provide a way back. Which reminds me of the gate that Udinaas and Feather Witch find that is blocked to Starvald Demelain, is it blocked because the gate is enclosed in the sword? Is one of themes of the books the reconciliation of the Tiste families with their source? Finally, how does one get a password to get on the Malazica Encyclopedia? Now I'll leave and we'll see you in two weeks.
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Tiam, Draconic bloodlines, Gnosticism and passwords
#2 Guest_imx_*
Posted 09 May 2007 - 09:26 PM
Yeah, Tiamat is the one I've always been thinking when SE speaks of Tiam. And the way to Starvald Demelain has been blocked, but you will see how it goes in RG. It would have been seriously cool to have seen Tiamat built from the essence of the female dragons, and mayhaps that can happen, but it is a little less likely after you see what happens in RG at the end to the twisted sisters.
There naturally is a theme, or sub-plot, concerning Tiste-families, their relationships and their Warrens. Osserc vs. Rake, Light vs. Dark, brothers in arms, Edur, Andii and Liosan. But reconciliation, like all three co-existing peacefully? That would require.. Mother Dark and Father Light hugging!
Do not know if that is the direction we are headed, certainly feels like we going somewhere else 
There naturally is a theme, or sub-plot, concerning Tiste-families, their relationships and their Warrens. Osserc vs. Rake, Light vs. Dark, brothers in arms, Edur, Andii and Liosan. But reconciliation, like all three co-existing peacefully? That would require.. Mother Dark and Father Light hugging!
Do not know if that is the direction we are headed, certainly feels like we going somewhere else
#3
Onrack the breakable 
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Posted 11 May 2007 - 12:36 AM
I thought the main tenet of gnosticism was that all senses are untrustworthy and thus TRUTH can only be determined by correctly interpreting (incorrectly translated) greek scriptures from hebrew sources and following that doctrine blindly.
Unfortunately, as mentioned such doctrines and scriptures are more flawed when it comes to the physics of the universe than flawed human senses.
I may be wrong here. I'm no big history buff but did read alot of history while in highschool (nothing else to do in study hall most times) and some in college. Anyway the initial premise that human senses are flawed eventually did lead to the scientific method once the "wise men" figured out that basing doctrine on a bunch of fairy tales was not a very good idea (unless your goal is to swindle money from the gullible).
Anyway, the scientific method can put a man on the moon. Gnosticism and other religions can't do much of anything but get people killed, or take money from the poor to keep priests and such fat and happy.
Unfortunately, as mentioned such doctrines and scriptures are more flawed when it comes to the physics of the universe than flawed human senses.
I may be wrong here. I'm no big history buff but did read alot of history while in highschool (nothing else to do in study hall most times) and some in college. Anyway the initial premise that human senses are flawed eventually did lead to the scientific method once the "wise men" figured out that basing doctrine on a bunch of fairy tales was not a very good idea (unless your goal is to swindle money from the gullible).
Anyway, the scientific method can put a man on the moon. Gnosticism and other religions can't do much of anything but get people killed, or take money from the poor to keep priests and such fat and happy.
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