[Mithrandir]

Hi everyone, I am one of those members of this proud forum that have lurked around the place for years but, in anticipation of RG, decided to enlist and share some of the thoughts that will definitely ensue come the 7th book.

Anyway, I have been reading the most important extracts of BH in the past few days or so, in order to acquire a sense of continuity with the new book's developments. I have of course read Pat's non-spoiler review of RG and I am of the opinion that the very important scene of Fiddler's game bears one more look in a rather different light.

Everyone here surely remembers which of Fiddler's predictions came to pass in the same book and which ones are either too obscure for the time being or have not come to pass yet. For instance, in RG we will surely discover SOME stuff about Tavore's intentions and position towards a lot of things, whereas Fiddler's role is anyone's guess (especially bearing in mind the "body count issue" in RG!). Care to place your two cents on the matter?

I should kick this off, probably. So... first. Why is the High House Life so close to Fiddler? Who is Bottle's Deathslayer and how is he/she connected to Withal and Mael? Are Tavore's the Guardians of the Road in any way connected to the ascended Bridgeburners as seen in Paran's escapades? Let's hear it!

[Dolorous Menhir]

I reckon Fiddler has a position in High House Life. Soldier would fit nicely.

Deathslayer seemed to be the Crippled God, if I remember the reading correctly. If so, then the connections to Withal and Mael should be obvious to anyone who has read MT.

Don't know about the Guardians of the Road...

[Mithrandir]

See, this is what bugs me, of sorts... We do not really know what certain Houses stand for in order to say whether a character is possibly "aligned" to them or not. Let alone the roles themselves! For instance, Apsalar is expected to lean towards the House of High Shadow, given Cotillion's possession and her way of fighting. But what is the Soldier of High House Life supposed to be? Like the respective House of Light, we do not really know. And that is why Fiddler's role is an enigma, even taking into account his role in the Bridgeburner's ascend through the Spiritwalker song.

To be perfectly honest, at first I thought that Deathslayer was Eres, given her relation to Bottle and her power of healing. But the book text is written in such a way that it implies it is not the same person. I cannot see at this point in time why the CG would be called Deathslayer, unless what Hood asked of Paran had something to do with it...

The Guardians of the Road (or the Dead?) is anyone's guess, I agree. Still, the way the text is written clearly underlines some kind of role for them. Connected to what Hedge said to Paran while releasing the Deragoth, it makes some sense. Still... any theories regarding the other predictions?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Just looked up the scene, there was no description of the Deathslayer in it, the card was just dealt out. Pretty sure there was another part in the book where each of the new cards is described, since I'm fairly sure Lifeslayer was Icarium, the King in Chains was Rhulad, and you didn't get that from the big Fiddler's Game scene.

[Mithrandir]

Found the scene where Fiddler first discovers the new Deck cards. Yes, Icarium is of course Lifestealer/Lifeslayer, The Guardians of the Dead are again mentioned with no further detail and Deathslayer is indeed described as the Crippled God, although an entity having two roles in the Deck of Dragons is a rather questionable possibility. Still a mystery all this, then.

The King in Chains is referred to Keneb in Fiddler's game and in a way that it cannot be determined whether it means Rhulad or the CG himself (in the glossary of the book it is the exact term used for the CG in his House). It could very well be either of those, as Rhulad is of course a king and indeed chained.

It's worth underlying that, for some reason, Fiddler "sees further" for Keneb than for Apsalar or even Tavore. Sure, Keneb's fate is linked to the Fourteenth's, but still it kind of makes one wonder whether the three remaining factors (Spinner of Death ensues in BH) affect Keneb at different times or all at the same time. Lots of Queens along the King!

[spiralx]

Nah, it's all about Keneb's wife

[Blacksox]

When I read that passage I thought Karsa was deathslayer. Because he keeps the souls of his victims chained to him and they do not go to Hood.

[mad1]

Blacksox;180512 said:

When I read that passage I thought Karsa was deathslayer. Because he keeps the souls of his victims chained to him and they do not go to Hood.

I always assumed it was Karsa also. How about another choice, might deathslayer be Daseem Ultor. He has a grudge with hood and all that, or is that too obvious.

[Mithrandir]

Bearing in mind that Deathslayer relates to Bottle in Fiddler's game, it would set a scene of truly frightening convergence if Karsa really is the Deathslayer. I guess even Agayla would not have seen that coming!

It all goes back to how the god camps relate. If it is CG versus everyone else, and CG really wants to "destroy the world" (otherwise why would Bottle and Tavore set out to save it) then yes, Bottle will have to represent the other side and in some way face CG. And let us not forget the role of Karsa in this: he is supposed to be the Knight in Chains, but then again Karsa is not prone to be chained to anyone but his own will. If Karsa is supposed to face Rhulad in the end, and both are supposed to be aligned with CG, maybe Bottle does have something to do with the outcome of that fight.

Plus, it is another one of those cases that SE could very possibly play with words and meanings: a Deathslayer could have something to do with Hood, sure, but then again it might be purely literal, meaning that a Deathslayer is someone who prevents a force from killing others. SE very clearly depicts CG as the Deathslayer when Fiddler first finds the new cards (the smoke, the tent, the chains are unmistakeable) but the possibility of one entity with dual roles in the Deck of Dragons remains under scrutiny.

Which kind of reminds me... QB is given the card of Consort in Chains??!? It seems totally unrelated to what happened on the First Throne site in BH, so this has to refer to RG events as well. Maybe something to do with the mission Cotillion sends him and Trull on.

[2daniel22]

DeathSlayer (Karsa)
Lifestealer/Lifeslayer (Icarium)
King in Chains (kallor) -
Reaver (Rhulad)
Knight ?
Herald (Gethol the Jaghut)

[Mithrandir]

Hmmm... not quite... Taken directly form the BH glossary:

High House of Chains Structure

The King in Chains
The Consort (Poliel)
Reaver (Kallor)
Knight (Toblakai)
The Seven of the Dead Fires (The Unbound)
Cripple
Leper
Fool

Now, the King in Chains could be someone else, but comparing the structure of the other Houses, we should probably assume it is CG. The Reaver and the Knight we know about from previous books, The Unbound are the 7 Imass of Karsa, Poliel was logically acting for CG but is presumably out of the game now... and the other three roles we know nothing about.

The thing that does not fit here but is worth pondering over is the Herald. As 2Daniel22 points out, we HAVE come across this one in MoI, since he was the one that proposed to Kallor to be the Reaver. And it is indeed Gethol. So how come the role of Herald is not at all mentioned in the BH glossary? Was the structure of the House different before Paran sunctioned it? Is the Herald's role one of the unknown three? Is it inactive now?

Or is it just one of those details that got overlooked by SE? Hmmm... one can never rule out that one, I guess.

[Blend]

The King in Chains is not the CG. He purposely keeps himself outside the House for good reason. The house allows him to have a power base, and by keeping himself out of it, it makes it so that the "rules" imposed by the game (DoD) are not imposed on him personally. There's some mention of this in Deadhouse Gates when the cards are first made, if I remember correctly.

[Mithrandir]

Yes, that was indeed the case in Deadhouse Gates... but wasn't this the whole point of Paran's sunctioning the House of Chains? To force the CG to "play by the rules" like every other god? In Memories of Ice it becomes apparent, I think, from that discussion between Paran, QB and Gruntle.

In any case, the consensus of the thread up to now - as far as I can tell, at least - is that we do not really know who Bottle's "Deathslayer" is. We do not have any clues regarding Tavore's "Guardians of the Dead" or why Fiddler is drawn to the High House of Life. I re-read the passage yesterday and other questions occur, as well (the kind of questions that probably relate to RG).

Why, for instance, is it that Grub comes in contact of three unaligned elements? That kid is a great mystery, sure, but since he is part of Tavore's fleet, the way he can affect matters is probably more important than one can first assume. And why is QB related to the Consort in Chains, when her "death" has already happened by the time Fiddler plays the game?

We could be asking questions all day here, I know... but still, anyone willing to speculate on how these revelations could play a part in RG? Regarding the Malazans, of course.

[Locke Reaper]

IF i remember correctly grub becomes the first sword of a new empire when he is older. He is also much brighter and more informed than any other little boy i know. So maybe grub is one of the new unaligned.

[Ereko]

As to Grub being a new unaligned... Could be or he could just be an agent of Krul, Crazy theory there!

I don't know this is right concerning Fiddler's games with the deck, but here goes...

For the more improtant players it dealt with the near future. signs of thing to come. For all the players that weren't as significant in the game they had cards relating to them in the near past or the present.

So when Quick Ben got dealt Consort in Chains I thought it was just referring to the fact that he was in Poliel's temple when she got nailed, as I assumed that he wasn't one of the more significant player in the game

Also when Tavore got dealt Guardians of the Road/Dead I thought as she was a more major player in Fiddler's game it wa signifying that she would some how become involved with helping that Ghost Army.

I'm surely wrong but I'm sure everyone has had something explained to them on this forum!

gw

[Blend]

@Mithrandir - Just because Paran thinks he's crippled the CG's power by sanctioning the house, doesn't mean that the CG has taken up the position of King in Chains. The CG's intention was to stay out of his house, to act independently from it towards his own ends while letting the house aid him, although indirectly.

By sanctioning the House of Chains, Paran believed he'd be stopping the infection, or forcing the CG to play by the rules. To some extent this works, but in the end, the CG is still outside the influence of the DoD because he does not control the House of Chains, he is not the King in Chains, and by his own means.

Personally, I'd lean more towards Rhulad being the King in Chains. He's the Emperor of the Edur and Letherii, and he's carrying the chains of madness, and despite being King in Chains, the CG uses him as a puppet-king. It's all very interesting, imho.

[Rat Mentor]

I'm sure that the Throne of Chains is in the Letheras, which would put Rhulad as the King of House of Chains. I'm guesing at this because when Apsalar enters shadow with Telorast and Curdle in the beginning of Bonehunters, our two little Dragons mention that they can smell a Throne in Letheras. Although this is not expanded upon...

Edit: Hetan beat me to it!!!

[Mithrandir]

Yes, I can see Hetan's point that Fiddler's predictions do not necessarily refer to the future only. Of course, with everything in the Deck of Dragons being in flux, it is easy for SE to confound readers... but sometimes, just sometimes, I wish there was a way to hold on to something concrete in all these possible assumptions. If nothing else, so I can say later on "Ha! Knew it. From all the possible angles, I chose the correct one for THIS reason".

But then again... where would the fun be in this, since it can be equally entertaining to be constantly surprised. Yes, there is always that.

[Onrack the breakable]

Mithrandir;180558 said:

...Which kind of reminds me... QB is given the card of Consort in Chains??!? It seems totally unrelated to what happened on the First Throne site in BH, so this has to refer to RG events as well. Maybe something to do with the mission Cotillion sends him and Trull on.

In the same sentence it continues saying something like, "Consort of Chains- but hes from 7 cities and he just saved his sisters life (right after Poliel the last consort in chains was killed by the deragoth) so it isn't as bad as it seems. That suggests QB's sister is now the consort of chains and she either saves him or kills him. Which is anyones guess. I've mentioned this before in other threads but most people seem to disagree for bizarre reasons.

The point about Deathslayer being the CG is almost impossible to miss. Don't see how so many people totally miss it. Its described when Fid first looks the cards over. That doesn't mean CG is always deathslayer or anything just that he has some intangible relation at that specific time or thereabouts.