[Alexani]

Mael;176738 said:

And that is what a paradox is. A time based circle of events whose "end" triggers the "beginning" of said events. There are allusions to Paradox throughout the books. The character Circlebreaker for instance who Kruppe says "mends" the circle through his actions (im sure he did something at the fete we are not aware of) or Trull who has the circle broken with a slash carved onto his head during his shorning. Icarium's keeping track of time and perfectly predicted, yet not so well interpreted, events on his machines....etc.

Yes, but all of those things you list there are within the limits of what is possible. Being your own mother isn't, even if you can time travel. At some point, the Eres have to come into existence by other means than being born to herself, else she would not exist at all. The theory does not make sense.

The theory that Kettle is the child in question is much more plausible.

[Imperial Historian]

Speaking of the kettle is the child of trull and eres theory... if someone has the time could they write up/find a definitive explanation for this theory with quotes etc, so I can stick it up on the wiki as a FAQ? It comes up so many times it deserves an explanation, and I've not had time/been too lazy to do it for an age...

And for what it's worth I thought it was pretty clear that kettle was there child... whether kettle is the same child referred to in the quotes about the nerek is a different matter.

And as to how that makes the eres the mother of herself I have no idea...

But i think linking the circles in HoC and GotM is going a bit far, SE can use two different circles in the books without them being linked...

[buddhacat]

It would also help to be specific which soul of Kettle one is referring to. The original girl is dead, the soul gone ... somewhere (note that there was no Hood in Letheras when the original girl died. So that soul might be around somewhere.) Then there is the Nameless One's soul (which I think is the offspring of Eresal and Trull.) And then there is the Forkrul Assail soul.

[Locke Reaper]

Scabbi is refered to as father shadow by the letheri edur and we all know that their version of history is way out of context. Maybe the edur in the moranth forest were the left overs of the edur that the civil war did not crush, which would hold the key to the true 'ruler' of the original shadow realm.

As for the kettle and eres'al connection, if you want kettle to be the child of the eres in some obscure way then why not take bottle as the father instead of Thrull. Bottle gets his freak on everytime the eres comes around so maybe he knocked her up aswell.

For some reason i think the child of thrull is being protected/raised somewhere quite, like the past, until the time for his/her appearance to claim the healed realm. He/she is going to have to be and adult in full command of all her/his powers and skills to beat of all contenders for the throne.

hahaha.....Nuts theory baby thrull aka shadowthrone...

[Mael]

So confused. Someone please re-post the theory or post a link to the original thread where the whole Eres/Kettle thing came from plz. I can't find it.

[Blend]

My friend currently had my copy of Midnight Tides, otherwise the first thing I would do when I got home would be to spend a good chunk of time revising it and figuring out exactly how it all works together....

Mael, I'm getting the impression that the host body which is Kettle, the girl's body, does not actually belong to the souls inside her. I think what is being implied is that the Nameless Ones somehow got their hands on Trull and Eres' child and made it into a Nameless One, preparing it for a soultransfer into the soulless body of Kettle along with a Forkrul Assail soul for whatever reason, and so that's why Kettle, a seemingly human child, can actually be the offspring of the Eres and Trull.

It'll be interesting to see how this little debate unfurls.

[Abyss]

Y'know... all we need if for Kettle's original human body to somehow originate from the Mhybe and we could six-degree her to pretty much everyone in the Malazan world.

- Abyss, met Kevin Bacon once.

[kayjin2]

How did this become about the Ere's. I was merely speculating on an elemantal force of Shadow similar to Mother Dark and Father Light. Whethere whichever child does whatever, it doesn't impact on this.
Though there are a lot of kids running around...
Is it me or does Kurald Emurlahn seem to be very powerful? Even in its fragmented form. Galain and Thyrllan have not been shown much but somewhere i think in GotM it is mentioned that the Andii do not use the True Galain. Also there is the problem of Kurald Liosan.
The Tiste histories i think will never be greatly expanded because the more mysterious they are the more threads like this one will be created.

On another note, are Menandore and Sukul Ankahdu more powerful then their brother Loric. Because they are draconic soletaken and i believe he might have a Liosan mother. Osric spoke of her like she was still around and there is that comment about him and her spending three days together. I think that Tiam doesn't fit that bill

[Imperial Historian]

That's Udinass's son with menandore.

Re: The Trull and Eres child theory I will get all the necessary quotes at some point when I get back to uni and the books but the essentials are that one of kettle's souls is from a nameless one, who is the child of trull and eres. this is all very heavily implied if not explicitly stated.

[spiralx]

kayjin2;177519 said:

Is it me or does Kurald Emurlahn seem to be very powerful? Even in its fragmented form. Galain and Thyrllan have not been shown much but somewhere i think in GotM it is mentioned that the Andii do not use the True Galain. Also there is the problem of Kurald Liosan.

Does it? I don't think we've seen any heavy usage of KE so far - all of the overt magic done by the Edur in MT was Chaos-based rather than KE.

The Tiste Andii do use Kurald Galain, it's only those that're Soletaken dragons that also use Starveld Demelain - I believe Rake is described as using SD more than KG, but we've seen plenty of him and other TA using KG in GotM and MoI. And there's the talk of a full unveiling of KG being enough to possibly shatter a continent.

I would imagine that KG, KE and Kurald Thyrlann are all pretty much equivalent in power, if different in method.

I also think that Kurald Liosan is just what the Tiste Liosan call KT, they're arrogant enough it seems

kayjin2;177519 said:

The Tiste histories i think will never be greatly expanded because the more mysterious they are the more threads like this one will be created.

On another note, are Menandore and Sukul Ankahdu more powerful then their brother Loric. Because they are draconic soletaken and i believe he might have a Liosan mother. Osric spoke of her like she was still around and there is that comment about him and her spending three days together. I think that Tiam doesn't fit that bill

L'oric does seem to be weaker than most of "that lot", but then again most of the rest of them have either Soletaken Tiste or Elder Gods as parents

[Dolorous Menhir]

spiralx;177643 said:

Does it? I don't think we've seen any heavy usage of KE so far - all of the overt magic done by the Edur in MT was Chaos-based rather than KE.

The Tiste Andii do use Kurald Galain, it's only those that're Soletaken dragons that also use Starveld Demelain - I believe Rake is described as using SD more than KG, but we've seen plenty of him and other TA using KG in GotM and MoI. And there's the talk of a full unveiling of KG being enough to possibly shatter a continent.

There was a full unveiling of KG in MoI - and it was permanent, enough to claim Coral for the Andii forever. And from Tattersail's narration at Pale, Rake was using KG against the Malazans - though perhaps she was ignorant of SD as a warren.

Quote

I would imagine that KG, KE and Kurald Thyrlann are all pretty much equivalent in power, if different in method.

I agree. We haven't seen enough to judge relative strengths of warrens.

Quote

I also think that Kurald Liosan is just what the Tiste Liosan call KT, they're arrogant enough it seems

The problem is that the BH glossary lists KL and KT separately. The main theory is that the Liosan live in KL and draw power from the KT, but that's just an idea - and Pearl and Lostara did actually go to KT in HoC, so it's definitely a place rather than a power source.

[spiralx]

But it might just list them separately because that's how we've encountered them - through the Tiste Liosan, who seem remarkably ignorant of things. Or possibly KL is a fragment of KT, perhaps one spun off by Osric for the KL.

[kayjin2]

I believe it was Tool who said that some of the Andii hold that they were cast out and so they do not even use KG anymore instead they use SD. I think they are drawing on the paths of KG in the Malazan world. the true KG is where Mother Dark is and where their civilization began. The Andii do not practice a lot of faith and therefore their power might be diminished because of that.

In MoI Whiskey Jack says there is more than one way into KG and it is straight down the maw of Anomander Rake. I think this is because when he sembles into an Eleint the sword blends with him and thus the true gate to KG is through him.

The thing about KE is that it is split up yet there is much worth in having it whole. Trull said only a true master who healed KE could command the hounds but it has come through that the hounds of shadow are the shadows of the Deragoth. Why then would the Deragoth not answer to Rake? Because he does not truly use KG also. He turned his back on mother dark, who is to say she did not turn her back on him too.

I was reading MT and Rhulad said when they die their souls leave their bodies and the Malaz world because they are alien to it. Where then do the souls of the Edur travel...
Perhaps to SOn SHadow...

[Mael]

kayjin2;178737 said:

I believe it was Tool who said that some of the Andii hold that they were cast out and so they do not even use KG anymore instead they use SD. I think they are drawing on the paths of KG in the Malazan world. the true KG is where Mother Dark is and where their civilization began. The Andii do not practice a lot of faith and therefore their power might be diminished because of that.

The Andii that Tool is referring to are the Soletaken Andii (Rake, Korlat, Orfantal, Ruin, etc). These Andii are Elient Soletaken and thus use SD aswell as KG. They are the only tiste Andii that can use SD and were the first of the Tiste to arrive on the Malaz world.

Quote

In MoI Whiskey Jack says there is more than one way into KG and it is straight down the maw of Anomander Rake. I think this is because when he sembles into an Eleint the sword blends with him and thus the true gate to KG is through him.

When a dragon (or Soletaken dragon in this case) breathes, it opens its warren and lets loose the magic within (Rake can breath either KG, SD or both due to his being soletaken). Due to the nature of warrens, an open warren can also be utilized as a gateway, hence whiskeyjack's observation.

Quote

The thing about KE is that it is split up yet there is much worth in having it whole. Trull said only a true master who healed KE could command the hounds but it has come through that the hounds of shadow are the shadows of the Deragoth. Why then would the Deragoth not answer to Rake? Because he does not truly use KG also. He turned his back on mother dark, who is to say she did not turn her back on him too.

It is difficult to say what relationship the the Deragoth have with KG if any at all. It is obvious that the Hounds of shadow are subservient to the Edur who were thier previous masters. Since they are Shadows of the Deragoth it may be possible that the Edur are responsible for thier creation aswell. The Deragoth themselves are increadibly old and powerful with completely unknown origins at this time. They have also never encountered Rake so they may in fact bring him his slippers when they do...ya never know.

It should also be noted that the Hounds are also very intellegent (albeit a bit overconfident with regard to Karsa). It could be entirely possible that the Deragoth are actually the first children of Mother Dark and the hounds of shadow are the Edur's attempt to emmulate them. Just putting that out there for some people to chew on...

[Imperial Historian]

The Kettle is the child of trull and eres theory i've put in a new topic here

[Jimmy]

kayjin2;175654 said:

It is also curious to note that Scabandari and Osric are considered true brothers but Osric is said to be the first son of light and dark yet he is Liosan.

Where is it mentioned that they are brothers?