[Dolorous Menhir]

Well most of the Edur had never seen a living Tiste Andii and consider them to be legendary figures, so perhaps it is easy for an Andii to pass himself off as a dark-skinned Edur among a race ignorant of his own.

Plus the Edur are not exactly introspective thinking types, so they are not going to be too hard to deceive.

I don't think the infiltrators have any grand plan like a coup. They are probably just there to monitor the Tiste Edur. Ahn was clearly there posing as an Andii long before the events of MT, probably even before the Warlock King unified the tribes. They didn't have any power or way to influence the Edur behaviour, and that probably wasn't necessary anyway while they remained a warring divided people. And then with the changes of MT they were unable to prevent the invasion of their own land.

I think Ahn's confession to Trull of what he was (which took place in MT I suppose, since there wasn't much time for conversation in climactic battle of BH) was an attempt to influence things but it obviously failed. I don't think they'll be doing anything pivotal to save Bluerose, it's more likely Ruin or Rake will swoop in to take care of that. Especially when you consider the only such spy we knew of is dead.

[dktorode]

Micheal Jackson ring a bell anyone?

[Dolorous Menhir]

aaronsan;163544 said:

I don't think Ahn confessed to Trull that he was an Andii...I was just referring to how he fought alongside Trull at the last.

Can anyone cite that he DID tell Trull in MT? I don't think he did. He made some other explanation.

As to him being the only spy we knew of, he's not. There's a network, and he mentions it, along with at least one other name IIRC. Dang, I left my book at home because I finished the reread.

Can anyone confirm/deny either of these? He would have HAD to tell Trull he's an Andii in MT, if he did, but I don't think he did.

As for his thinking about his network, it's on board the ship after Karsa and Icarium are sailing with the Edurs. Rough guess, somewhere around page 400? I know that's not much help.

-Aaron

I didn't deny there was a network, just that its presence in the novels died with Ahn. Perhaps it will remain a relevant storyline, I don't know.

I thought there was a part in MT when Ahn tells Trull the real story of what happened between Bloodeye & Ruin, though I suppose he didn't necessarily reveal he was an Andii. I think he did. I'll try to look it up.

edit: the relevant passage

Midnight Tides, on p 764, said:

Trull looked away. Southward, the sprawl of farms on the other side of Thetil. No livestock, no workers in the fields. The rains had been kind, and all was a luscious, deep green. "A Bluerose slave, wasn't she? Your mother. Which was why you were always apart from the rest of us."

"I am ashamed of nothing, Trull Sengar. If you are seeking to wound me ---"

He met Ahlrada's hard gaze. "No, the very opposite. I know you do not like me. Indeed, you never have - long before I struck ... a woman. Oddly enough, I have always admired you. Your strength, your determination to rise above your birth - "

"Rise above?" Ahlrada's grin was cold. "I suffered under no such compulsion, Trull Sengar. Before she died, my mother told me many secrets. The Bluerose are the survivors, from a war in which it was supposed there were no survivors. It was believed the Edur had killed them all, you see. It was necessary to believe that."

"You have lost me, Ahlrada Ahn," Trull said. "What war are you speaking of?"

"I am speaking of the Betrayal. When the Edur and the Andii fought as allies against the K'Chain Che'Malle. The Betrayal, which was not as the Edur histories would have it. The Andii were the ones betrayed, not the Edur. Scabandari Bloodeye stabbed Silchas Ruin. In the back. All that you learned as a child and hold true to this da, Trull Sengar, was a lie." His smile grew colder. "And now you will accuse me of being the liar."

"The Bluerose are Tiste Andii?"

"The blood is thinned, but it remains."

Trull looked away once more. After a time, he slowly nodded to himself. "I see no reason, Ahlrada Ahn, to call you a liar. Indeed, your version makes more sense. After all, had we been the ones betrayed, then we should have been as the Andii today - mere remnants of a broken people - "

"Not as broken as you think," Ahlrada said.

"You do not think the Bluerose will capitulate? Is it not already a protectorate of the Letherii? A nation of subjugated people?"

"They have been waiting for this, Trull Sengar. After all, the truth cannot be hidden - once the Edur occupy Bluerose, it will be discovered that its ruling class possess Andii blood."

"Probably."

They were silent for a time, then Ahlrada Ahn said, "I hold no particular hatred for you, Trull Sengar. My hatred is for all the Tiste Edur."

"I understand."

So yes, Ahn told Trull he was a part Andii. And it was no secret that he was only a half-blood Edur, and it was probably assumed the other half was human.

This quote from later shows that this was suspected by other Edur.

Midnight Tides, on page 822, said:

"The Tiste Edur," said Ahlrada Ahn. "have won themselves an empire."

His words were heart by Sergeant Canarth, who strode up to them. "You deny half your blood, Ahlrada? Do you find this victory bitter? I see now why you stand at Trull Sengar's side. I see now - we all see" - he added with a gesture encompassing the warriors behind him - "why you so defend, why you refuse to side with us." Canarth's hard eyes fixed on Trull. "Oh yes, Trull Sengar, your friend here possesses the blood of the Betrayers. No doubt that is why the two of you are such close friends."

Trull unslung the spear at his back. "I am tired of you, Canarth. Ready your weapon."

[Apsalar Shadowdancer]

I think they knew he was Half Andii, i think when they say he possesses the blood of the Betrayers they mean the Andii, not humans.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Canarth was Letherii IIRC, who knew what the bluerose and black onyx andii looked like. It's possible that none of the Edur alive have seen a Tiste Andii so when they see Ahlrada Ahn, who (by using make-up) is the same hue as them essentially, with the same relative characteristics over humans, yet with andii features (different nose-shape or whatever) they just assume it to be unique to him and an unfortunate birth or something.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Thelomen Toblerone;163774 said:

Canarth was Letherii IIRC, who knew what the bluerose and black onyx andii looked like. It's possible that none of the Edur alive have seen a Tiste Andii so when they see Ahlrada Ahn, who (by using make-up) is the same hue as them essentially, with the same relative characteristics over humans, yet with andii features (different nose-shape or whatever) they just assume it to be unique to him and an unfortunate birth or something.

Canarth was an Edur! There were no Letherii fighting on the Edur side in the Edur-Letherii war apart from Hull Beddict.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Ahn's father has to be an Edur. Otherwise Ahn would not enjoy the position among the Edur that he does. It's clear the Edur don't accord him much respect even as a (as far as they know) Edur-Bluerose halfbreed, but if he wasn't an Edur at all then there's no way he would be commanding Edur troops in battle.

He's an Edur-Bluerose mixed-breed, and Bluerose means a certain amount of Tiste Andii heritage (in his own words, the Andii blood has thinned). It's highly unlikely his mother was an escaped slave, she would've been a deliberate plant to establish her offspring as deep cover infiltrators among the Edur.

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

I did not understand or appreciate Ahn's part in MT. I understood that he risked a great deal by revealing himself to Trull, but was never really captivated by his personality. BH completely turned that around for me. Just another example of how SE is a genius at weaving plot threads together; his final stand with Trull was particularly poignant because we were suddenly reminded that he was just an outsider looking in...somebody who overcame his blood to do the right thing at the right time.

[Sir Thursday]

I personally think that Ahn was mostly if not all Andii - it would seem to make sense that if you have a network of watchers you would make them all part of the same family - it would make it the Edur more likely to pass of their abnormalities as a family trait. So it would seem very likely (to me, anyway) that his father was one of these Bluerose spies, and inducted his son into it.


Sir Thursday

[flea]

Doesn't Ahn bleach his skin? If it were accepted that he was a Edur-Andii mix then there would be no need for his Michael Jackson-like actions. He is in deep undercover.

Unless I'm wrong--correct away.

[Dolorous Menhir]

He's not accepted as an Edur-Andii mix among the Edur. He is known as an Edur-Bluerose mix, and as far as they are concerned the Bluerose are humans (we know they are actually Andii-descendants, presumably mixed with human blood).

So he has to take the extra step of dying his skin to make it appear that his other half is human rather than Andii.

[Illuyankas]

The sergeant specifically says that Ahn is part Andii - part Betrayer - when he tries to defeat Trull later on in MT. So I think the bleach is to disguise just how Andii he is.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Right, but I think that may have been more of a general insult than the result of knowledge. I mean, if someone seriously accused Ahn of being a Tiste Andii (in the earshot of many others) there would have to be some repercussions I think. Whereas Ahn didn't seem affected afterwards.

It seemed more like a stock insult among the Edur, "you have the blood of the betrayers!" Especially effective since Ahn is not 100% Edur and that's no secret.

[Illuyankas]

Maybe some of the more xenophobic Edur would enjoy seeing evidence of Andii remnants being absorbed into the Edur, in a "we won, and your culture is gone!" sort of way, and tolerate some partblood Andii. Not very likely though...

And perhaps Ahn's martial prowess shields him in a similar way to Trull.

[Tattooed Hand]

flea;164708 said:

Doesn't Ahn bleach his skin? If it were accepted that he was a Edur-Andii mix then there would be no need for his Michael Jackson-like actions. He is in deep undercover.

Unless I'm wrong--correct away.

I think you are right. I just did a re-read and there are parts where Ahn long to go home to Bluerose and fears he never will. There's also the bleeching. It's clear that the Betrayers are Andii, since the Edur twisted the story around to make them the betrayers. He bleeches his skin and he's still darker than the Edur. He's all Andii/Bluerose, posing as half Edur to have a place in Edur society. He doesn't have to be a prince to keep an eye on things.

Also, I feel like in the descriptions of the Silanda there is a difference in terms of features between the Edur and the Andii, like the latter are finer features. My impression was that it was more than skin color. But I don't think the Edur would know that because I don't think they know the Bluerose are Andii/Betrayers. Remember, they haven't been much into travel and exploration of Lether. And the Bluerose are a pretty small population in a pretty small part of the continent. Ahn also remembers in the BH that his peeps are hiding away in caves now since the Edur expansion and take over of Lether.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Illuyankas;164788 said:

Maybe some of the more xenophobic Edur would enjoy seeing evidence of Andii remnants being absorbed into the Edur, in a "we won, and your culture is gone!" sort of way, and tolerate some partblood Andii. Not very likely though...

Trull does make a point of noting in the discussion quoted above that things would get bad for the Bluerose once the Tiste Edur invaded and discovered that the ruling class were of Andii blood.

Which strongly implies the Tiste Edur did not know about the true nature of the Bluerose at the time of MT.

Quote

And perhaps Ahn's martial prowess shields him in a similar way to Trull.

That's probably it. Given the way the Edur seem to work, having Trull totally humiliate Canarth in a duel was probably the most effective way to rebut the charges against Ahn.