[Abyss]

There's a pretty common confusion between the whole Mortal Sword and Knight/Soldier/Champion roles... MS is the older form, but is not necessarily the same thing in all cases.

Iirc, in HoC, Karsa is ref'd as both the Mortal Sword AND Knight, but of the House of Chains, NOT the Chained God.

And Fener, apparently not an Elder God, had a MS, Destriant and SA, probably because that's how the pantheons were framed on Genabackis/wherever the Grey Swords were from, but apprently not in the Malaz Empire.

Technically, the 'Beast Hold' has become the House of War in the Malaz pantheon, but on Leth, where they still follow Holds, it might still be the Beast Hold.

Since Togg and Federline already have two MS', it would seem the Enk'T3 is most likely filling a role from the House, be it knight, champion, whatever...

- Abyss, have i confused you enough yet?

[Battalion]

You have me.

I thought that the Deck of Dragons were a seperate entity. Knight and Champion, ect are all cards of the deck. Mortal Swords and all that are different ... aspected to Gods, but not part of the Deck.
Sometimes, the same person takes two titles.
I thunk.

[jared1221]

Actually, Abyss, you didn't confuse me a bit. Although Karsa being called both Knight and MS is wierd.

I seem to recall Quick Ben explaining in MoI about how MS, SA and destriant were the predecessers of Knight and all that of the Houses. So I figured those titles belonged to specific gods from before there were Houses, though maybe there were Holds already. Holds were more general as Houses and had less restrictions on build up. Holds dealt more with races than with allignment or function. (Hold of Ice = Jaghut, Hold of Dragons = Draconic, ...)

Fener falls under the same category as Togg and Fanderay, being Ascended Beasts. Apparently these were coexisting with Elder Gods but not the same.

And also, even though the enkar'al TTT would hold a place in the House of War, this would actually still place it under some command of Togg and Fanderay. We also have Hood as King of High House Death and the Herald of that same House announces himself as Hood's Herald. And in HH Shadow we have the same thing, the Magi serves ST as do the Hounds, The Rope is perhaps less subservient.

[Lucifer's Heaven]

One could however think of a gods minions as Destriat, and Mortal sword and all that. But the Knight and herald and things are linked to the houses. This would mean that no matter what position in a house a god held, his Mt and SA would alway follow that god. But if, say, Fanderay and Togg were deposed and trake took over, they would keep their minions sworn to them, but those who were servants of the House of war would then be under Trake's directions.

This does of course bring up the whole "what if Toggs MS was also Knight of HHW"? Then maybe he'd have to renounce one, or maybe it would simply be down to diplomatic skills of his masters.

Several points though. First of all trake also has his own army and MS and stuff. This then means that they do not have to be linked to the houses. I always thought of it as whoever controlled a house had the power to select people for the positions. And if there was no-one controlling the house, then the house itself would pick them. So because Hood is King of HHD, then he placed people who were sworn to him into the roles. Kinda like the leader of a mercenary title becoming a king. He has his army no matter what, but the positions of councillor and kingdoms champion are only his to bestowe, while he is king. He will then do the obvious choice of pick his best soldiers and commanders to take those positions, as he already trusts them, they are already his.

That's how I always saw it (sorry if the beginning is rather confusing, I'm tired and about to go to bed, and so can't be arsed fixing it even if I thought I could at the moment)

[Coin Bearer]

jared1221;178626 said:

Now I don't know about the whole role reversal issue. But I am wondering where the enkar'al-possessed-Thelomen Toblakai fits in from HoC. It was a Thelomen Toblakai of pure blood who was possessed by a demon and then imprisoned beneath B'ridys. After Kalam stuck his knives in it, the blood poured into the stream and an enkar'al drank it, switching the soul of the enkar'al to the Toblakai body and vice versa.

So, the spirit of the TTT, the Champion of the Beast Hold, passed into the enkar'al, and the spirit of the enkar'al passed into the Toblakai. Right so far? But this enkar'al chased Kalam down into the whirlwind and Kalam killed it by pouring some sand and rocks down its throat. So what happened to the spirit of the Champion?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Coin Bearer;179545 said:

So, the spirit of the TTT, the Champion of the Beast Hold, passed into the enkar'al, and the spirit of the enkar'al passed into the Toblakai. Right so far? But this enkar'al chased Kalam down into the whirlwind and Kalam killed it by pouring some sand and rocks down its throat. So what happened to the spirit of the Champion?

No, no.

There was a TTT body in the water, it had been possessed for a very long time by some sort of demon. Backstory not supplied, though it may be in the future. The original TTT personality was gone. It was this demon that spoke non-verbally (i.e. magically) to Kalam. When Kalam stabbed it, the blood travelled through the local water supply and the en'karal drank it.

The demon then switched places with the en'karal (the TTT body was under the water because it had been chained there). The en'karal soul ended up in the TTT body. The demon was in the enkaral body. Kalam killed that body, and so the demon died.

The enkaral soul was a bit confused by being in the body of another animal - and the new rulers of the Beast Hold came to help it. At this point, it is implied, it started on the road to becoming the Champion of the Beast Hold. It is this new enkaral TTT that is the Champion, there was no Champion before (there was nothing at all in the Beast Hold until shortly beforehand).

[Coin Bearer]

DM, Thanks.

[ASAGO]

Just because there is a god of war that has as we know of 3 faces, in book 6 the grey helms recognize quick ben on the ship with tavore the person that reqognizes quick ben in in fact Anaster

[Lancelot]

ASAGO;180290 said:

in book 6 the grey helms recognize quick ben on the ship with tavore the person that reqognizes quick ben in in fact Anaster

:confused:
No its not! Think you have your grey helms and grey swords mixed up dude;)

[ASAGO]

no way wait until you read reaper gale

[Dolorous Menhir]

RG spoilers in a BH forum?

[Urb]

ASAGO;180290 said:

Just because there is a god of war that has as we know of 3 faces, in book 6 the grey helms recognize quick ben on the ship with tavore the person that reqognizes quick ben in in fact Anaster

But the man who recognizes Quick Ben is Destriant of the grey helms, while anaster was mortal sword of the grey swords. And also this destriant clearly has two eyes, not one (Anaster only has one eye).

I'm confused :confused:

[Illuyankas]

It's simple, ASAGO is mistaken. More would be RG spoilers.

[Talon]

Just while we're on the House of War and maybe this belongs more in the crazy theory threads....but every house has nine positions except HHW (I haven't read RG yet) so does Destriant, Shield Anvil and Mortal sword fill the remaining 3 positions? (if you count soldier and Army as seperate roles??) I don't recall any other house having these positions or are they just similar to positions like High Priest etc of the other houses?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Talon;187628 said:

Just while we're on the House of War and maybe this belongs more in the crazy theory threads....but every house has nine positions except HHW (I haven't read RG yet) so does Destriant, Shield Anvil and Mortal sword fill the remaining 3 positions? (if you count soldier and Army as seperate roles??) I don't recall any other house having these positions or are they just similar to positions like High Priest etc of the other houses?

Positions like Destriant, Shield Anvil, etc, are associated with particular gods, not High Houses. It's always Destriant of God X, not Destriant of High House Y.

So Destriant, Shield Anvil, Mortal Sword are not positions in High Houses.

As far as I know, there is no particular significance to the number of positions per House given in the glossaries. Remember that the House of War has a big question mark over it, Fiddler didn't have much confidence in his reading of it.

[Talon]

Dolorous Menhir;187630 said:

Positions like Destriant, Shield Anvil, etc, are associated with particular gods, not High Houses. It's always Destriant of God X, not Destriant of High House Y.

So Destriant, Shield Anvil, Mortal Sword are not positions in High Houses.

As far as I know, there is no particular significance to the number of positions per House given in the glossaries. Remember that the House of War has a big question mark over it, Fiddler didn't have much confidence in his reading of it.

Thanks Dolorous...more positons will probably be revealed, I suppose, as we read on as SE seems to have 9 positions in each of the Houses...also do you think Minarva (spelling) is the Mistress of HHS and her 'children' are The Company (I'm compiling a little Word doc for various info on MBotF.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Talon;187635 said:

Thanks Dolorous...more positons will probably be revealed, I suppose, as we read on as SE seems to have 9 positions in each of the Houses...also do you think Minarva (spelling) is the Mistress of HHS and her 'children' are The Company (I'm compiling a little Word doc for various info on MBotF.

I don't know. Seems reasonable.

[Mentalist]

Umm.... wasn't the supposed champion of the Beast Hold killed by Karsa in BH?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Nope. Not sure what you're thinking of, but Karsa has never met the Champion.

[Danyah]

It's all so vague. At first, the beast hold was the hold of the Imass. FW tells as much in MT. (the oldest tiles having pictures of people draped in animal skins). Later the beast throne was claimed by Wolves of War in that ritual at the end of MT.

Wether only the house of war exists, or it coexists with the beast hold, I really don't know...

As for those mortal swords and stuff... there is a mortal sword of the Sisters in one of the novellas. He doesn't seem to have an army, nor a destriant or a shield anvil. I think these are positions in a warrior cult. So it's possible that there is more than one of each per god on Wu.