[Monoch Ochem]

See, seems to me the Elder warrens also include Ruse. Ruse is Elder. That much T'amber confirmed. It seems human aspected too. Silgar was a priest of Mael, as is Mallick Rel (ever notice the pun there: remove llick R and we're left with Mael? Anyway...). The only other mage to use Ruse so far is Ebron. Ruse also stood up better to otataral (it held Karsa), another Elder trait. QB said it's notoriously difficult to shape Ruse, probably due to its Elder, more primal nature.

I now believe that humans can and do use Elder warrens. Corlo used Kurald Galain (so did Quick when he shifted Hairlock). Maybe we'll see a revival of the Holds...seems like the only power able to match the CG.

Ebron's pretty accomplished...Meanas, Ruse

[Bl1nder]

Interesting, this is perhaps also supported by Bottle, he did help QB to fight off the Edur, or perhaps he helped him win AND survive, which is later confirmed by Nil and Nether. So bottle will have a bigger roll to play, if this is true, than being chased around by a E'resal

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Monoch Ochem;148523 said:

Ebron's pretty accomplished...Meanas, Ruse

Yeah, Bottle says as much in TBH when the sappers are planting munitions outside Y'Ghatan, and he comments on how Ebron's illusion is far superior to his,a nd the skill he must have.

As for the re-emergence of Elder magic; yeah I think it's likely we'll see more of it, as the need to counter what tCG/Edur have to work with grows. What I dont understand is why so few people in the Malazan area use Hold magic to start with, if it's so much more powerful, why bother with Warrens?

[Obdigore]

ok 1) Bl1nder, that was eres (the goddess) helping QB, not Bottle.
2) As noted in tBH and HoC, Holds are much more destructive, and you can do more 'detailed work' with the warrens.

I will post some page numbers and conversations tonight if people want.

[Onrack the breakable]

I just love tossing out god theorys. When we first see Ebron in HoC (remember he is the only magic user EVER to put the smack on Karsa, and consider Silgar- an elder Mael Priest was ineffectual magically against Karsa) someone says, "Beru fend" and Ebron says, "Yes".

Haha.

[Dark Mac]

Uh, I could be wrong, but isn't Beru female?

[Midnight]

Nope, Beru is male, Nerruse is female....I think

[Bl1nder]

Obdigore;148598 said:

ok 1) Bl1nder, that was eres (the goddess) helping QB, not Bottle.
2) As noted in tBH and HoC, Holds are much more destructive, and you can do more 'detailed work' with the warrens.

I will post some page numbers and conversations tonight if people want.

Eh...no. Bottle helps QB, but whithout realising the Eres is helping aswell

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

I find it interesting, then, if Elder magic is effective against Karsa, that he so easily shredded through the Tiste Edur mage on the Silanda in HoC (have we established whether or not that was Binadas?)

[Dolorous Menhir]

Karsa appears invulnerable to Elder magic - he dispersed wards of Tellan when freeing the Jaghut Aramala on the Jhag Odhan. And the Edur magic appears to be less than pure Elder anyway, so it's no surprise Karsa can handle it.

I wouldn't be surprised if almost all magic fails against Karsa, even Kurald Galain. What would happen if he took on a Starvald Demelain weilding dragon?

[Illuyankas]

That's why I think Karsa killed those two Deragoth so easily, he prevented them from using KG when he butchered them. When the Shadow Hounds were fighting in DG, they were using KE, especially against the dhenrabi D'ivers, so why shouldn't the Dark Hounds have KG at their disposal? Only not versus Karsa.

[Dolorous Menhir]

That would make sense. I like that idea. You've got to wonder though, do the Tiste Andii have any control over the Deragoth, in the same manner that the Edur retain the ability to command the Hounds of Shadow, even to the point of countermanding the orders of Cotillion & Shadowthrone.

[Falco]

Bl1nder;148641 said:

Eh...no. Bottle helps QB, but whithout realising the Eres is helping aswell

Eres is helping through Bottle.

[Monoch Ochem]

Bottle helped QB first then they both realised that someone else joined in to make the illusion real: the Eres. Bottle knew straight away that it was her. QB knew that the Eres was using Bottle before when they were doing that divination with the dolls.

I think it's not just the fact that the magic is Elder but the wielder's power and the TYPE of Elder magic. I think that for some reason, Ruse stands up stronger against otataral. Also, with Karsa, it's not just the otataral in bloodoil, he has his own particular power- that force of will. I don't think the Deragoths' power was dimished against Karsa because of the otataral. In fact, I'm not even sure the Deragoth are of Kurald Galain anyway. But as far as Silgar was concerned, he wasn't as powerful as Ebron. Ebron threatened to turn Silgar into a puddle if he so much as reached for his warren. Silgar was a priest of Mael...no more. In fact, Mallick Rel, being a Jhistal, may even be of a higher order than Silgar. So Ebron would probably have more success against Karsa. So too would Rel, I think.

I wonder if Mael could make use of Ebron against the Edur in a similar way that the Eres makes use of Bottle? Will the old boiled crab finally stir himself to activity? I mean, they're all at war...hardly any need for subtleties any more.

[buddhacat]

Monoch Ochem;148757 said:

I think it's not just the fact that the magic is Elder but the wielder's power and the TYPE of Elder magic. I think that for some reason, Ruse stands up stronger against otataral. Also, with Karsa, it's not just the otataral in bloodoil, he has his own particular power- that force of will. I don't think the Deragoths' power was dimished against Karsa because of the otataral. In fact, I'm not even sure the Deragoth are of Kurald Galain anyway. But as far as Silgar was concerned, he wasn't as powerful as Ebron. Ebron threatened to turn Silgar into a puddle if he so much as reached for his warren. Silgar was a priest of Mael...no more. In fact, Mallick Rel, being a Jhistal, may even be of a higher order than Silgar. So Ebron would probably have more success against Karsa. So too would Rel, I think.

In addition, Karsa has grown into a force unto himself, i.e., a personal Toblakai warren. It may be Elder as well. It probably acts to protect him against most sorcerous attacks.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

I dont remember anything about the Deragoth using KG I must say, I seem to recall them as not beign the children of Mother Dark at all....

[Bl1nder]

Yes, Lo'ric and Osserc discusing them after seeing them in Raraku's past, and Osserc says no one really knows where from they came to be about

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Which would seem to put a hole into Illy's theory of them using KG....

[Illuyankas]

It's pretty safe to assume that, being the Hounds of Darkness and able to use warrens (when Paran is worried that they'll follow him through the warrens after he releases them from the statues), that they use KG. I mean, MD made the universe, after all. Besides, the EG's may know something about them that the confirmed younger Osserc doesn't.

[Bl1nder]

Too much "if's" tbh