[Aptorian]

Maybe I should have been more specific

I'm primarily interested in reading up on what I missed in the Marvel Universe. On top of that, seeing as I'm not paying for it, I've decided that I wanted to look into why anyone would chose to read DC over Marvel. So I'm looking for exceptional DC stories aswell.

I'll read most anything, but I'm not really into all that artsy fartsy comics for grown-up's that you'll find at libraries.

On another note, anyone else read World War Hulk and what did you think about it?

Not having read Planet Hulk or much of Civil war that came before it, a lot of things were a bit fuzzy, but as a crossover and as a big marvel event I thought it was awesome.

I like this incarnation of the Hulk. Sort of a mix of the Evil Grey hulk McFarlane drew and the Smart Hulk and freakishly strong. It's interesting that the Hulk has now been completely retconned into having some form of radioactive super healing power and not just being invulnerable. I remember the shock the reader got back when Wolverine ran him through back in the 90s with adamantium claws and it was revealed that the hulk was a "healer". The amount of damage he takes in World War Hulk is amazing, and it sort of makes you wonder about the feasability of him standing up against the powers of the Sentry.

I liked the whole grey area the story was moving in, the story of revenge and retribution, forgiveness and mourning. I am a bit disappointed that not one of the "Illuminati" died during the gladiator games, that would have been one hell of a shock.

I liked the cross over stories like Heroes for Hire and the Brood infestation. Humbug is one of my favorite new Marvel Characters, disgusting and interesting. The "Frontline" stories were also good. Interesting to see a competitor for Daily Buggle and the whole down to earth new angle approach to such a big event. I always liked Ulrich ever since Frank Miller used him so much in his Daredevil Miniseries.

I think the only thing that really annoyed me was

Spoiler

The fight between Sentry and Hulk. The Amount of power those two would supposedly have used to fight each other to a standstill should have destroyed the earth, if not at least severally damaged the eastern seaboard. You can see the energy plasma stuff that Sentry produced falling to earth pouring through the streets of New York. Its rather unbelievable that the city survived that ordeal and even less believable that all the none Omega level people in Madison Square Garden didn't turn to ash and dust. It would have made more sense if the battle had been moved out of new york, for example into New Mexico.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 06 June 2009 - 08:43 PM

[wolf_2099]

stone monkey, on Jun 6 2009, 01:46 PM, said:

Well some of those I've not read... But for the most part I'd agree.

All Star Superman really needs to be on that list. And Alan Moore's Top Ten, which is extraordinary. I'd probably add Warren Ellis' Global Frequency and Planetary too, and the latter part of his run on Stormwatch Jonathan Hickman's Image stuff would go on there as well. And I also quite like Mark Millar's work on Ultimate Fantastic Four and Mike Carey's.

Planetary should be on there, had to miss something.

I've read Stormwatch and UFF, and Global Frequency. They'd be secondary suggestions for me, after all that (maybe not Global Freq).


I also very much enjoyed WWH. I have the same problem with it as all other major event cross-overs though. Nothing ever really changes all that much.

[stone monkey]

Ah. A Marvel Zombie...(look it up, it doesn't just refer to the series)

I'm primarily a DC man myself, although I do read a few Marvel books. When I was younger, back in the 80s and 90s, I was a Marvel Zombie all the way through - but with a hint of insanity, because British boys comics of the 70s and early 80s, or more particularly 2000AD, were completely mental; Judge Dredd, Rogue Trooper, The VCs, Slaine, Zenith... the list goes on and they're all absolutely hatstand... 2000AD probably explains a lot about my generation of British comic book fans and possibly why the British influx of writers completely revolutionised the US market.

Back in my youth Marvel had that whole "relevance to the real world" thing going on. The X Men were obviously "about" racism and teenage alienation, The Fantastic Four was obviously "about" family, Spider Man was obviously "about" growing up. The DC Universe just seemed silly. Brightly coloured idiots going about ridiculous adventures.

Then something happened, I grew up. I got interested not just in the content, but in the nature, of story. DC's characters are, at base, what you might call storytelling engines. They exist, as Grant Morrison seemed to be pointing out in Final Crisis and its spinoffs, to have their own very specific stories told about them.

Marvel's characters always seem secondary to the stories about them imo; Spider Man could be anyone, the ever revolving cast of the X Men are pretty much interchangeable for the most part. That's not to say that good and interesting stories can't be told about them, they can; but the characters are not really vital to the nature of the stories themselves. That's not true of DC's characters; I think. These characters are iconic in a way that Marvel's aren't. A Superman story has to be about Superman, it would be utterly incomprehensible if it weren't (see All Star Superman). The Batman is the guy who always wins, who is always prepared for what will happen, who has thought everything through; he will always win, and his stories are simply about how he manages it (see Batman RIP or his appearances in the early 00s JLA run). You might notice that I'm using Grant Morrison examples here; but as he is my favourite writer and, with Geoff Johns, pretty much runs the DC Universe nowadays storywise, I think I'm allowed.

In conclusion, I'm now a DC fan because the DC Universe seems to contain stories with more archetypal meaning to them than those in the Marvel Universe. They speak to me on a deeper level about what it is to tell stories. Which, I realise isn't for everyone. An example is probably in order here: during Final Crisis,

Spoiler

at a particularly significant funeral,

someone asks Mr Terrific how he can remain an atheist when he personally knows an angel. That's the kind of storytelling you don't see in the Marvel Universe because none of the characters who live there seem to be aware of the implications of their mere existence. DCs characters have a self awareness about them, about what they themselves mean. Whereas Marvel's characters are blissfully unconcerned about such things as, at base, they don't seem to mean anything, they just are.

Anyway, I'm rambling and not really answering the question you posed. You asked for examples of why someone might prefer one company's product over the other's and instead got a fairly incoherent essay on the philosophical differences that one longtime fan finds between the Big Two. Oh well, it is nearly two in the morning here and that is, very unfortunately, the kind of thing you'll get from me when I answer questions like that one at this time of night...

[edit - grammar and punctuation... 'cos I'm a species of obssessive/compulsive]

This post has been edited by stone monkey: 07 June 2009 - 12:50 AM

[wolf_2099]

Question Stone Monkey.

Has DC lost some luster for you now after what most think was a horrible Final Crisis event, and with Geoff Johns seemingly trying to write back his childhood by bringing back all the characters that died?

DC now just seems to be an entire throwback to the silver age with Johns acting as the equivalent as Marvel's Bendis.

[stone monkey]

I actually loved Final Crisis (it would appear I'm one of the few) as it was trying to be bit more than the usual Big Comic Event where they get everyone together And Then They Fight Something... At least it made an attempt to say something of substance.

And I've never really been a fan of Johns anyway, so his current work leaves me no colder than any his previous stuff that I've read. This whole Silver Age nostalgia kick that both companies have been doing is a major bugbear for me. But I grew up during the 80s when the influence of the Silver Age was something the new crop of writers were fighting to overcome. It does have it's points, though. There is that level of utter insanity that Silver Age DC comics had that you tend not to see any more. It's easy to mock but the mindbending imagination that went into it deserves a certain amount of respect.

Bendis just bugs me, I love his earlier work - the early issues of Powers are brilliant - but WTF is he doing in the mainstream Marvel U? Daredevil and Alias were great; everything else has been a disaster, if you ask me. One wonders how much influence Joe Q is bringing to bear. The respective double acts; Millar/Bendis at Marvel and Morrison/Johns at DC, seem to concentrate all the interesting storytelling juice in the Scottish half of the pair, while the US half seems to have all the influence over overall company direction. Which doesn't seem to work all that well. What makes Marvel work is real world relevance and streetsmarts and what makes DC work is barking at the moon and the physics dial turned up to eleven. Both companies seem to have lost their way a bit recently.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Holy crap, how did I go so long without finding this thread. I wont say anything too specific yet, because there are ten pages of posts to go through to make sure I dont repeat a load of stuff that's already been brought up, but MARVEL FTW.

Anyone read Captain Britain by the by? I just cant believe anyone thought that was a good idea. Captain Britain?! Realy?!

[Illuyankas]

Captain English?

Fighting the Skrulls - good except for

Spoiler

John the Skrull dying

.
What I've read so far of

Spoiler

DRACULA ON THE MOON STEALING PLOTS FROM DR MCNINJA

- alright.
Everything inbetween - ehh.

[wolf_2099]

Thelomen Toblerone, on Jun 7 2009, 02:54 PM, said:

Anyone read Captain Britain by the by? I just cant believe anyone thought that was a good idea. Captain Britain?! Realy?!

I haven't enjoyed it, but I see why people have. The writer is good, just not my thing.
The series has been canceled anyway.

[Aptorian]

Illuyankas, on Jun 7 2009, 11:01 PM, said:

Captain English?

Fighting the Skrulls - good except for

Spoiler

John the Skrull dying

.
What I've read so far of

Spoiler

DRACULA ON THE MOON STEALING PLOTS FROM DR MCNINJA

- alright.
Everything inbetween - ehh.

DAMMIT WHY COULD I NOT STOP MYSELF READING THESE SPOILERS!?? CURSE YOU APTS LACK OF WILLPOWER!!!

[Aptorian]

Just finished reading Cable and Deadpool 1 through 50.

Dammit that was one awesome series. Certainly did not deserve to be cancelled.

To those who haven't heard of the series it was basically an excuse for the creator(s) of cable and Deadpool, what's his face-author-I-don't-remember, giving the characters some much deserved exposure. Cable is a time travelling super saviour mutant, with a techno organic virus and godlike telepathic/telekinetic powers, son of Scott and Jean Grey, who came from a dark future to save the world from Apocalypse. Deadpool is a completely insane, weapon X reject, with a mutated cancer version of Wolverines healing, super reflexes and strength, cursed to never die, and among the best of the best in the super mercenary/hitman/steal stuff business.

The series gets of to a start when Deadpool is hired to steal a virus for a cult, that just so happens to also have attracted Cables interest. Lots of twists occur but it ends up with both Cable and Deadpool being infected by the virus and nearly turning into mush, they combine Cables techno virus and Deadpools healing factor and cure themselves but in the process their Genetic make-up copies each other and from then on they are sort of linked.

Cable, turning into a demi-god as his powers keep growing exponentially, attempts to become a mutant Jesus for the worlds masses, doing all kinds of miraculous feats to promote peace and prosperity, which of course pisses of all the worlds governments and super heroes (because how dare he actually do something more than pummel other super people with his powers) mean while Deadpool serves as the insane devils advocate to Cables dreams. Wade being a cynical lunatic hates the world for everything that it is, and becomes the voice of scepticism. Their differences soon turns their relationship into a true friendship of mutual understanding but also constantly leads to fights and betrayals, mainly because Cable thinks he knows everything and Deadpool is insane.

Well, anyway, I finished the series, and while it was sad that Cable actually was made to leave the series because of in house stories within stories and endless crossovers, I think the series ended on a high note. I mean for Christ sake, the last number was about Deadpool, Weasel, Bob the Agent of Hydra and the Avengers, Spiderman and FF battling dinosaurs venom symbiotes in New York. How fucking cool is that?

The end scene, with deadpool coming full cirkle from the beginning, was a bit heart warming.

I love deadpool.

Now I'm on to reading the first two mini-series and Deadpools own series. 69 numbers of deadpool goodness! Thank you Internet!

EDIT: Is there even anybody else than Illy who's read Cable and Deadpool?

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 15 June 2009 - 08:28 PM

[Illuyankas]

Maybe. Don't forget the new Deadpool ongoing, as well as the ones leading into what Cable's doing now (Messiah Complex, Cable, X-Force which wasn't nearly as bad as I was expecting, and whatever that crossover is that has Cable and X-Force crossing over) since that has some Deadpool too -

Spoiler

delicious thousand-year older extra-crackpot Deadpool

- and has one of my favourite lines ever said by Deadpool.

[Aptorian]

The new Deadpool books you're talking about, is this the stuff connected with Dark Reign?

I've been collecting stuff connected with dark reign but I won't read any of it untill I finish collecting and reading House of M, Avengers Disassembled,Secret Invasion and Civil War. That's a A LOT of books. And before that I was planning on reading everything Avengers from the 60s and up.

So yeah, I'll probaby get around to reading Dark Reign in a year or two

[Illuyankas]

They are, yes, but you'll probably get around to them about the same time Captain America dies again.

[Aptorian]

That reminds me. I love all the references to his death that pop up in the other books.

In World War Hulk, Rick James, bitch! Jones pops up, and Hulk makes a joke about Cap showing up soon to kick his ass, and Rick tells hulk that Cap is dead. That is one of two times in the event that has Hulk at a loss for words. Epic.

I was also reading the new Thor books after Ragnarok and after Thor returns to life he comes to the monument of Cap and summons his spirit. That was so awesome. Loved the whole, cloaked in blue but with a shinning star on the chest bit.

[stone monkey]

... Psst! This...

Oh and btw, the new Beta Ray Bill miniseries is a hell of a lot of fun. Sample quote: "This is going cosmic."

And it also has a reprint of the amazing Walt Simonson origin in the back... (of the first issue at least...)

[Illuyankas]

What's that? J. Michael Straczynski's leaving another title he took from crappy sales to critical acclaim and awards because of a crappy event he doesn't want to happen to the character? And his Thor run is great, too, even with the mandatory 'trust Loki even after all the fifty fucking billion betrayals' malarkey.

[stone monkey]

JMS being slightly naive again for thinking Marvel won't mess about with characters that they actually own... I think he got a bit used to getting his own way, creatively that is, with B5.

[Illuyankas]

Considering that the last time this happened it was about One More FUCKING Day, I'm perfectly willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Aptorian]

Illuyankas, on Jun 27 2009, 12:24 AM, said:

What's that? J. Michael Straczynski's leaving another title he took from crappy sales to critical acclaim and awards because of a crappy event he doesn't want to happen to the character? And his Thor run is great, too, even with the mandatory 'trust Loki even after all the fifty fucking billion betrayals' malarkey.

Oh Fuck Me! I love this Thor run. This is a damn shame. Hmm. To be honest I think I may be more in love with the artist than the writer. It's good writing but the whole "Oh, look! Loki screwed over Thor AGAIN! Who would had thunk it!?" bit was old, old but good, but still old. The art on the other hand is fucking beautiful. It along with the new X-force comics has the best art in my opinion.

stone monkey, on Jun 27 2009, 01:53 AM, said:

JMS being slightly naive again for thinking Marvel won't mess about with characters that they actually own... I think he got a bit used to getting his own way, creatively that is, with B5.

Yes, indeed. Reading the article I was thinking, oh come on you giant pusy. Seriously, I don't know what type of writer he is, but you would think that the plot of the Thor books would be planned out for years to come, so how hard is it to make a cross over event fit into the mesh? He could just totally ignore the other event if he wanted.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 27 June 2009 - 05:53 AM

[Aptorian]

Heh...

http://sfscope.com/2009/05/comics-artist-m...able-detai.html

Quote

Comics artist Mark Sable detained for Unthinkable acts
By Ian Randal Strock



Boom! Studios sends word that comics writer Mark Sable was detained by TSA security guards at Los Angeles International Airport this past weekend because he was carrying a script for a new issue of his comic miniseries Unthinkable. Sable was detained while traveling to New York for a debut party at Jim Hanley's Universe today.

The comic series follows members of a government think tank that was tasked with coming up with 9/11-type "unthinkable" terrorist scenarios that now are coming true. (See this article for more on the series.)

Sable wrote of his experiences: "Flying from Los Angeles to New York for a signing at Jim Hanley's Universe Wednesday (May 13th), I was flagged at the gate for 'extra screening'. I was subjected to not one, but two invasive searches of my person and belongings. TSA agents then 'discovered' the script for Unthinkable #3. They sat and read the script while I stood there, without any personal items, identification or ticket, which had all been confiscated.

"The minute I saw the faces of the agents, I knew I was in trouble. The first page of the Unthinkable script mentioned 9/11, terror plots, and the fact that the (fictional) world had become a police state. The TSA agents then proceeded to interrogate me, having a hard time understanding that a comic book could be about anything other than superheroes, let alone that anyone actually wrote scripts for comics.

"I cooperated politely and tried to explain to them the irony of the situation. While Unthinkable blurs the line between fiction and reality, the story is based on a real-life government think tank where a writer was tasked to design worst-case terror scenarios. The fictional story of Unthinkable unfolds when the writer's scenarios come true, and he becomes a suspect in the terrorist attacks.

"In the end, I feel my privacy is a small price to pay for educating the government about the medium."