[Abyss]

See upthread re FABLES. Worthwhile.
EAST OF WEST is brilliant and entirely worth your time and dollars. Hickman is genius.

[JPK]

Abyss, on 02 April 2017 - 03:43 AM, said:

See upthread re FABLES. Worthwhile.

Damnit. That makes twice today that I missed something super obvious. It was even just a couple posts up. It's time to go to bed... And read Planetary. I'm a couple of issues into the third TPB now and this one someone ups the crazy factor even more.

Spoiler

I mean, Sherlock Holmes as part of a shadow society that is sabotaging things behind the scenes "for the greater good" being watched over by fucking Dracula!? Who promptly gets frozen and then his balls literally kicked off!? And this is all just a fucking flashback sequence!? Gaaaaah! Awesomesauce overload!

[T77]

FYI...all of Fables is on Hoopla if your library has it.

[Grief]

Thanks for all the recommendations everyone! I think I'm going to start with Lucifer and some of the single-volume recommendations, then work from there. I remember reading Freakangels by Warren Ellis, because there was a thread about it here. My main memory is that it started out interesting but sort of petered out towards the end; I also seem to remember some people saying that this was a bit typical for his work. Am I likely to have that issue with the recommendations people have made? I've heard that Watchmen has a bit of an unconvincing ending, which I do find a pretty offputting (it's hard to want to get invested into something when you've heard the ending doesn't hold up that well). I'm also a bit hesitant about 'major superhero' (Superman, Spiderman, etc) comics in general. It's tricky to pinpoint exactly why, just that given the choice between two highly esteemed comics I'd probably choose the one that didn't have Batman in it (arbitrary as that may be).

[Abyss]

Re Ellis, the endings for AUTHORITY and PLANETARY utterly stick the landing. I'm told the same goes for TRANSMET, tho that's a very different beastie.
WATCHMEN... read and make up your own mind. Even if you hate the end, the trip there is worthwhile. And I doubt you'll hate the end.
For Name comics like Superman and Spidey, I recommend finding a run by an team, or at least writer, with an identified end point. That way you get a story, not an interminable series of ongoing bits.

[polishgenius]

With Ellis the issue isn't that he can't write endings but that there was a while where he went through a phase of simply not finishing stuff properly (in part because his computer with all his work on got destroyed, and a couple other personal reasons iirc, mixing with his normal hyperactive tendencies). Planetary was partly affected (the ending itself is fine, but it's very obvious in the leadup to it that the series was supposed to be a lot longer) but mostly it was a thing with works that genuinely just stopped, like Fell, Global Frequency (which doesn't matter anyway as it's composed of standalone stories) and one of his novels.



Watchmen has one of the most iconic endings of all time. The only reason some people have an issue with it, usually, is that one aspect of it looks a bit silly. But it reads fine.

[Abyss]

A common complaint about Ellis is that he didn't keep writing certain things (Authority, Planetary, Nextwave, Moon Knight...) when fans wanted more, but that's down to his choice or Marvel Editorial.

Actually i suspect some of the critique of Ellis' work stems from his Marvel comics stuff, where he typically isn't allowed to write the ending he would have liked because Big 2 comics just dont allow stories to end with death and sex and drugs and people being reduced to drooling sex toys in liquid dimensions. I know of at least one utter epic run by him - Doom 2099 - that was gutted by another writer in the last five pages of Ellis's last issue... five pages Ellis had zero input on.

PG is right that he lost in his computer meltdown but iirc that was mostly Fell and one novel that was utterly lost and never saw light. FREQUENCY was exactly what it was always supposed to be. PLANETARY... there were many rumours about exactly what happened to delay the last issue nearly three years, but i disagree that the story suffered or needed to be longer. I read it all in one marathon and thought it was awesome and complete.

[QuickTidal]

This very true…the best case on the DC squad is Scott Snyder…every one of his Batman events/arcs were INCREDIBLY written that largely had to pull their punch or petered out at the endings…because the Big 2 won’t let you do much outside the box stuff unless you put their toys back where you go them….which was why his non-main, creator created stuff like THE WAKE is so amazingly poignant and perfect from start to finish…and instead his Batman is solid with weaker endings.

I feel like this is worse with Ellis as his bread and butter has always been the “out there, batshit insanity”….and his Big 2 work suffers as a result.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 03 April 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

This very true…the best case on the DC squad is Scott Snyder…every one of his Batman events/arcs were INCREDIBLY written that largely had to pull their punch or petered out at the endings…because the Big 2 won't let you do much outside the box stuff unless you put their toys back where you go them….which was why his non-main, creator created stuff like THE WAKE is so amazingly poignant and perfect from start to finish…and instead his Batman is solid with weaker endings.

I feel like this is worse with Ellis as his bread and butter has always been the "out there, batshit insanity"….and his Big 2 work suffers as a result.

...to be semi-fair, it seems as though when they do let him off the leash... Counter-X, NEWUNIVERSAL and i'm pretty sure the current DC Wildstorm reboot... the fans bail because it's not THE AUTHORITY v.6.0.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 03 April 2017 - 03:12 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 03 April 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

This very true…the best case on the DC squad is Scott Snyder…every one of his Batman events/arcs were INCREDIBLY written that largely had to pull their punch or petered out at the endings…because the Big 2 won't let you do much outside the box stuff unless you put their toys back where you go them….which was why his non-main, creator created stuff like THE WAKE is so amazingly poignant and perfect from start to finish…and instead his Batman is solid with weaker endings.

I feel like this is worse with Ellis as his bread and butter has always been the "out there, batshit insanity"….and his Big 2 work suffers as a result.

...to be semi-fair, it seems as though when they do let him off the leash... Counter-X, NEWUNIVERSAL and i'm pretty sure the current DC Wildstorm reboot... the fans bail because it's not THE AUTHORITY v.6.0.

Oh, almost certainly.

[polishgenius]

Abyss, on 03 April 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

PLANETARY... there were many rumours about exactly what happened to delay the last issue nearly three years, but i disagree that the story suffered or needed to be longer. I read it all in one marathon and thought it was awesome and complete.

It was mostly the flower stuff and all that deeper universe trip stuff that got hurriedly brought in and a bit skated over. It seemed fairly obvious that was intended to be a bigger part, and the flower a long-term recurring theme the way the snowflake had been.

From what I recall the delay on all the last few issues was a combination of personal issues and simply being too busy by both Ellis and, by the end, Cassaday, who'd turned from budding name when the series started to superstar artist by the time it ended, and art taking the time it does he simply had to fit Planetary around the rest of his schedule.


And yeah, much Big 2 main-universe work suffers when they have to bring it back to the status quo, especially by writers like Ellis, Snyder, Morrison (I suspect the same is true of Jonathan Hickman, the new generation Grant Morrison, but I still haven't read his legendary FF run yet so I can't say for sure). That's why Elseworlds was such a good idea...

[Abyss]

polishgenius, on 03 April 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

...(I suspect the same is true of Jonathan Hickman, the new generation Grant Morrison, but I still haven't read his legendary FF run yet so I can't say for sure). That's why Elseworlds was such a good idea...

The biggest problem w Hickman's FF run was that no one could possibly follow it with anything close to comparable. Hickman was moved over to the Avengers for the Infinity event and then eventually Secret Wars, which pretty much ended the FF as a Marvel comic while WB and Fox fight over the movie rights. He kept the FF characters relevant by writing them into Avengers storylines and then the Secret Wars finale.

All of which is to say, his FF run is awesome, your Morrison analogy is accurate, better plotting, less crazy for the sake of crazy, more big concept big panel.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 03 April 2017 - 04:12 PM, said:

polishgenius, on 03 April 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

...(I suspect the same is true of Jonathan Hickman, the new generation Grant Morrison, but I still haven't read his legendary FF run yet so I can't say for sure). That's why Elseworlds was such a good idea...

The biggest problem w Hickman's FF run was that no one could possibly follow it with anything close to comparable. Hickman was moved over to the Avengers for the Infinity event and then eventually Secret Wars, which pretty much ended the FF as a Marvel comic while WB and Fox fight over the movie rights. He kept the FF characters relevant by writing them into Avengers storylines and then the Secret Wars finale.

All of which is to say, his FF run is awesome, your Morrison analogy is accurate, better plotting, less crazy for the sake of crazy, more big concept big panel.

Hickman's FF run is arguably my favourite run in ANY mainstream Big 2 comics over the years...and I'm not even a Marvel guy, I've been a DC guy most of my life. It's THAT good.

And Abyss is right...following it would have been too tall an order, full stop.

[polishgenius]

QuickTidal, on 03 April 2017 - 04:22 PM, said:

Hickman's FF run is arguably my favourite run in ANY mainstream Big 2 comics over the years...and I'm not even a Marvel guy, I've been a DC guy most of my life. It's THAT good.

In fairness though, while it's a Marvel comic from what I have read it feels like a DC comic, somehow.

I'd love to see Hickman in the actual DCU, though. Him writing Superman could be phenomenal.

[Abyss]

polishgenius, on 03 April 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

...

I'd love to see Hickman in the actual DCU, though. Him writing Superman could be phenomenal.

Yeah, a Hickman run on Justice League and a couple of related comics would be pure candy.

Tom King is cueing up to be the next that guy too, and he writes Batman, so we may see something suitably epic in the future.

...I hasten to add that i liked Tom King before it became trendy to like Tom King...

[polishgenius]

I'm going to have to start dropping money on some of these again soon. Haven't been able to regularly buy comics for aaaaaaaaages, for various reasons, but I might be able to get at least a few this year...


Jeff Lemire's a rising don too, though he seems to have moved to Marvel before DC gave him a go on any of the really big properties (I guess the let-down of Constantine might have had an effect there, but what I read of his Animal Man was excellent, and I really wanna catch up and do the crossover he had with Snyder's Swamp Thing, which is that rare thing, a crossover with universally rave reviews).

[QuickTidal]

Great, now I want to read Tom King's Batman....goddamit Abyss!

@PG...Lemire fully is a rising don...and I've met him and he is the most down to earth and nice comic creator I've ever met.

[Abyss]

Grief, on 02 April 2017 - 10:50 PM, said:

Thanks for all the recommendations everyone! ...

Let me offer you two more, both by the same guy, Robert Kirkman...
THE WALKING DEAD... yes, the comic that started the whole thing. Ignore the tv series, this is excellent storytelling.

INVINCIBLE... imagine you're Superman's kid. You spend all of puberty waiting for superpowers. They finally kick in. You rock! ...get a cool costume, beat up badguys, make superhero friends, date hot chicks... and then your dad comes back from outer space and tells you it's time to conquer the world, son. Or else i punch you and then everyone else into paste. Cue 136 brilliant issues (and a couple of specials and spinoff mini-series' you can skip but shouldn't).


...also, Mark Waid...

IRREDEEMABLE... imagine Superman goes nuts, starts killing people. Not 'conquer the world', just plain old crazytime killfeste, starting with anyone who had a sliver of a chance at stopping him.

INCORRUPTIBLE ... now imagine a random, low level Superman enemy becomes a hero to try and stop Supes.

...these two aren't as epic as Kirkman's, but they're solid and way way shorter, i think each book is collected in two tpbs.

EMPIRE ...imagine Doctor Doom conquered the world. Twisted, violent, worthwhile. First series is available in tpb or digital, second you can get for free at Waid's Thrillbent comics site.

[polishgenius]

If you're reccing Mark Waid you have to mention Kingdom Come. I know, I know, Grief said he's less interested if it's mainstream superheroes, but Kingdom Come is FUCKING INCREDIBLE.

[Abyss]

polishgenius, on 03 April 2017 - 07:36 PM, said:

If you're reccing Mark Waid you have to mention Kingdom Come. I know, I know, Grief said he's less interested if it's mainstream superheroes, but Kingdom Come is FUCKING INCREDIBLE.

If you're a long time DC reader. Otherwise it's just very good.