[Rakov]

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Wurts...eeeurrgh. Good addition to the burn pile. How many trees have died to allow that rubbish to be printed. Turgid, adolescent melodrama (thanks Sombra, great description).

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J. V. Jones, pure and utter tripe. and I agree about McKiernan...the very thought of his writing makes my eyes bleed...Dear God make the hurting stop

I have to take exception to both of those statements, because neither is true!

I know this thread is driven by the subjective, but both of those are positively mind-altered in their flippancy!

Book of Words is YA fantasy from a beginning author. Swords of Shadows most definitely is not. Jones is one of the better stylists, as is Janny Wurts - and it isn't just style for style's sake - and they both understand men and women a damn sight better than a whole host of other fantasy authors.

There seems a tendency on the board to prefer books that wear their brains on their sleeve over those that wear their hearts on theirs. Wurts and Jones are always more concerned first with human character than they are 'the concept' or the ongoing vastness of the world building etc. Arithon is one of the more fully rounded and intelligently realised characters in fantasy. There is nothing adolescent about Wurts' realisation of him. His whole desire simply to be a musician and not have to be a slave to wider affairs, is palpably symbolic of any budding writer/artist coming up against the brute, unfeeling and demanding necessity of 'real life', of never minding about all that 'fancy recreational arty nonsense' and just 'getting on with living'. And that's just one level of the depth his character carries.

While a good many fantasy authors should read Chapter Seven of Jones's A Cavern of Black Ice to learn how to develop character and have the reader follow their journey and feel they are living it, not an easy trick to pull off - and how to construct a telling storyline.

Nope, can't agree with either of those 'burns' at all. But then this is a thread driven by the subjective for the most part, I understand that.

[Werthead]

Not a massive fan of Wurts, although her collaboration with Feist was excellent and The Master of Whitestorm was good. Agreed with Jones: Sword of Shadows is an excellent fantasy series and if the third book is as good as the first two, I'd elevate her in my estimation to the top tier of modern epic fantasy authors, alongside Martin, Erikson, Bakker and Kay.

[Rakov]

You are as informed, measured and respectful in areas of disagreement, as ever, Werthead.

[rlfcl]

it's sci-fi, but ANY of the dune prequels. i can't begin to describe how bad those books are.

[councilor]

personally, i thought the first dune was actually pretty good, and then it sort of went downhills from the seconds book.

and while i wouldn't burn Stephen Donaldson's gap books, they weren't exactly freat either, but that's just my twisted opinions...

[Morgoth]

latest books by eddings. Read the first in his newest series as he was the first fantasy author (apart from tolkien) that I read.. It was so awfull I wanted to cry. Dear god why did he do this to me?

[councilor]

hah!
i actually liked some of eddigngs earlier works - i mean they weren't great, but they were sort of fun to read. and then i discovered that most of his books tend to be reallt similar. i mean what does he do? write to a template?

[Astra]

The Soddit by Adam Roberts

Rubbish! Rubbish!! Rubbish!!!

[councilor]

has anyone ever read anything by katherine kerr? it's strange - i'm not quite sure what to think. on one hand she seems to have some interesting ideas, but on the other, everything just gets so damn convoluted it's hard to make out who is who, or was who. i really don't know what's happeing - could someone give me a pointer?

[Arkmam]

councilor13;147696 said:

has anyone ever read anything by katherine kerr? it's strange - i'm not quite sure what to think. on one hand she seems to have some interesting ideas, but on the other, everything just gets so damn convoluted it's hard to make out who is who, or was who. i really don't know what's happeing - could someone give me a pointer?

Checking the incarnation table at the end of the book and keeping a finger at it while reading helps out.

[Sol Invictus]

The Diablo books by Richard Knaak. They are patently horrible.

[Onos]

Eddings books made me pretty angry. Not sure i would burn them though... Throw them at people maybe?

Goodkind, i read more than i wish i had... 3 i think and bought the 4th one but couldnt read it. It was a pretty crappy world. One book could last me for TP for probably a month. A used copy might be cheaper than TP.

Wurts i rememeber REALLY hating, but only read half a book. Nothing happened, all just politics.

Dragonlance books are ok, but really for a younger audience.

[councilor]

doesn't knaack specialize in those weird rpg and game spin offs?

i remember reading his magic the gathering ones while i still played the game. they weren't anything spectacular, i can say that

[Arkmam]

councilor;145798 said:

hah!
i actually liked some of eddigngs earlier works - i mean they weren't great, but they were sort of fun to read. and then i discovered that most of his books tend to be reallt similar. i mean what does he do? write to a template?

Actually I think he does. In the Rivan Codex, which is a collection of background material and some other things, this is included in the foreword as a sort of formula for epic fantasy:

* 1. The Underlying Theology (Polytheistic/Monotheistic/Buddhist/Other)
* 2. The Quest
* 3. The Magic Thingamajigger (Holy Grail/One Ring/Magic Sword/Jewel)
* 4. The Hero: Galahad the Pure, Gawain the Brave, Perceval the Dumb (Naive), or Lancelot the Heavyweight Champion of the World
* 5. The Resident Wizard (Gandalf, Merlin, Belgarath)
* 6. The Heroine
* 7. The Villain (usually with some diabolical agenda)
* 8. The Companions (generally a multicultural crew who can protect the hero until he defeats the baddie)
* 9. The Romantic Interests for 8.(NB: both 8&9 must be well-rounded groups, with individualised personalities and flaws)
* 10. The kings, queens, emperors, generals, courtiers and such, who make up the governments of the world.

It's kinda scary really.

[Tif the Barber Boy]

Last year I reread the Belgariad (Eddings' first series) and I was surprised by how much I enjoyed it: the writing seemed smooth and the dialogue crisp and witty. The narrative zipped along at a good pace and the characters were interesting. Even though I recalled enjoying the series when I first read it 18-20 years ago, I was still taken aback. It definitely gets points for the quality, if not for originality.

Having said that the exact same plot was repeated in The Diamond Throne series (can't recall the name of the series) and so were the majority of characters, countries, cultures and political situations. There was a definite template to it. I found it very profoundly uninteresting. The follow-up series also failed in the writing department - the prose and dialogue seemed much flatter and lifeless. I never read any Eddings after that and I don't think I would ever bother with any of his newer output. But I do think the Belgariad is a fine traditional fantasy and would recommend it to all but the most jaded fantasy readers looking for something in the Tolkein mould.

But there really seems to be a trend of this kind of thing. Terry Brooks' original trilogy was enjoyable. Everything that followed utter rubbish. Feist wrote an outstanding first trilogy (and what I consider one of the classics of modern fantasy: Magician) but after that things got progressively worse and worse (I stopped reading Feist after the Serpentwar Saga). One gets the feeling that these guys just compartmentalised themselves and started churning out artificial, soulless junk. Why? One would have thought that once they had become successful authors, with books guaranteed to sell, they would take more risks and really let their imagination go... but that doesn't seem to be what happened.

[Terez]

Great Expectations

Cather in the Rye

Was this supposed to be for fantasy only?

Eragon

I don't think I would go so far as to burn Feist - his story was really good, but his presentation of it, I found to be dusty. I read the first four, and couldn't read any more after that.

But definitely Eragon...

~burns Eragon~

[Astra]

Bag of Bones by Stephen King.

[flea]

rlfcl;144738 said:

it's sci-fi, but ANY of the dune prequels. i can't begin to describe how bad those books are.

Why limit yourself to these? Volumes 3,4 and 6 of Herbert's series are really bad, if only in comparison to the first.

Robert Jordan's series after about the fourth. I read the first 10 and was hating myself for reading 7-10.