[Deslan]

if the quote from Hetan is correct in

http://www.malazanem...read.php?t=6477

'A lad named Dujek discovered where we were holed up and he delivered us to his new employers. Kellanved and Dancer.’
‘Was this before they were granted entry into the Deadhouse?’ Gamet asked.
‘Aye, but only just. Our residency in the Deadhouse rewarded us with – as is now clearly evident – certain gifts. Longevity, immunity to most diseases, and . . . other things. The Deadhouse also provided us with an
unassailable base of operations. Dancer later bolstered our numbers by recruiting among the refugee Napans who’d fled the conquest: Cartheron Crust and his brother, Urko. And Surly – Laseen. Three more men were to follow shortly thereafter. Toc Elder, Dassem Ultor – who was, like Kellanved, of Dal Honese blood – and a renegade High Septarch of the D’rek Cult, Tayschrenn. And finally, Duiker.’ He half smiled at Tavore. ‘The family. With which Kellanved conquered Malaz Island.'

On page 662 if HoC, Apsalar says:

'Dancer know him. Knew him well. They were...three. It was never just the two of them- did you know that? Never just Kallenved and Dancer. No, he was there. Almost from the very beginning. Before Tayshrenn, before Dujek, before even Surly.'

If these 2 passages are correct, then it would be impossible for Dassem to be Traveller, because Traveller is part of the family before Surly, but Dassem doesn't become part of the family until after Surly.

[Dark Mac]

They're obviously not. During the same conversations, we find out that Hawl is dead and then alive. One of them is obviously wrong...probably the first, since Nok has reasons to lie about these things.

[Xaspian]

Is it possible that Dassem had known/been associated with Kellanved and Cottilion before they went to Malaz city? If he was part of the 'family' before they found Deadhouse, and just temporarily left during the time when recruiting happened. Nok could quite easily not know about their past, when Dassem turned up again.

Maknavox, the claim is that Traveller isn't Dassem. From the quotes, you could logically conclude that Dujek is Traveller, but that's almost definately untrue.

Or is it...?

[Murrin]

Add in that Duiker was, from his own PoV, never part of this 'family' (he was a front line soldier, picked out from the ranks long after the Empire began), and there is less and less to trust in the first quote.

[Xaspian]

There's another topic about Duiker's potential role in the Family:
http://www.malazanem...read.php?t=6477

But I would agree that Nok's report is less trustworthy than Cotillion's memories in Apsalar, or Duiker's own thoughts about himself.

[vaiski]

To me, it comes down to the following. Most of the Malazan characters in the series are strongly inter-related, be it BB's links to any number of characters, Paran's siblings, Crust brothers popping in again, and so on and so on. I mean, apparently even WJ's sister has a role to play.

So, keeping this in mind, how likely do you think that there would be another Dal Honese man, whom both ST and Dancer know well, and who is, youknow, the best with a sword?

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Maknavox;142484 said:

i dont get your reasoning. Where dos it say traveller is part of the family?

In Hoc as they're leaving Drift Avalii.

Also, I thought NoK made it pretty clear that Traveller was Dassem, there's not really anyone else that matches the description.

[Xaspian]

So it's a choice as to whether we believe NoK or Nok?

Heh.

[Kallor]

lmao ... it's like these arguments are generational within the groups of fans here ... thank you all for making me chuckle just before i have to don my cold armour and face -34C temps ...

[Xaspian]

Maknavox;142596 said:

The way i see it is that dassem was knew kellenved and dances before the others, thus was part of the family earlier on, but later joined again, without the others knowing dassem cot and ST knew eachother.

Exactly my suggestion

Maknavox;142596 said:

Thusly dassem could be traveller and not be traveller
Maybe he's ameron!
Seriously, if everybody who read NoK is saying "their is proof in NoK" then i believe them.

Yeah, I trust the reports of NoK. I really need to get it sometime...

Maknavox;142596 said:

BTW, anybody else thinks dassem and kellenved are brother/cousins/family?

They're 'family' in the sense that all those mentioned by Nok are family. Nok does say that both Kellanved and Dassem are Dal Honese, but there is little evidence. It's possible, but without more clues, I'd say it's unlikely.

[Jorram]

With all due respect etc to Kallor, the reason for this caveat is simply it being one of the hundreds Erikson's inconsistencies. He just CAN'T keep track of stuff. Face it, and enjoy the literature. Dassem is Traveller and between these two quotes in HoC there are probably about 100 pages, so enough for Erikson to forget, i guess *cough*

[Monoch Ochem]

Kallor;142587 said:

lmao ... it's like these arguments are generational within the groups of fans here ... thank you all for making me chuckle just before i have to don my cold armour and face -34C temps ...

Well then Pallor, why not shed some light on the subject? I verily believe this has been resolved before but alas I'm no forum-searcher. I think Nok's account has always been questionable in that particular conext. Cotillion's memories are the insider information, regardless of what Nok actually observed; much less what Nok CHOSE to say to Gamet and Tavore.

[Kallor]

it has always been my belief that dassem was traveller ... reaper's gale addresses this, iirc ... btw, just to prevent your next question ... no, i haven't begun toll the hounds yet ...

[Thelomen Toblerone]

My God Kallor, with the abundance of tiny, tantalizing hints you're dropping about RG I think I'm goign to go insane with anticipation and be forced to kidnap you and make you spill the beans.

[Abyss]

Seriously, this debate gets recycled regularly. It's like Frenzy-was-Red/Rumble-was-Blue (and if you got that one you're too old for the internet).

But it's a valid one, since, notwithstanding that NoK does, to my mind, settle the question, we haven't seen anyone walk up to Traveller and say 'Oh, hi Dassem. Nice sword.'. And even NoK only suggests, albeit VERY strongly, that Dassem is Traveller.

While we can reasonably acept that Dassem and Dessembrae are the same dude, the Traveller thing is intentionally vague. And i don't think that's an SE omission. He's shown us more than once that different characters have different perspectives on the same set of 'facts'.

Oh, and Pallor... : Braaaaaiiiiinnnnzzzzz.

- Abyss, denies all facts.

[Xaspian]

I was tempted to make a thread about this a while back, but decided not to.

But there's only so many things we can speculate about, so repetition is bound to occur. Especially if you've been on the boards a long time, you'll have established ideas that relative newcomers won't understand yet. Hence the need for repetition.

But I think it's good that many things are left vague. It gives it something to do, and maintains the suspense, making the final realisation all the greater.

[vaiski]

Iarwain Ben-Adar said:

Especially if you've been on the boards a long time, you'll have established ideas that relative newcomers won't understand yet. Hence the need for repetition.

Yeap. Back when I joined the boards I remember the 'veterans' groaning about this and that being discussed for 3rd or 4th time
New books have brought new things to speculate upon, but also new people to the boards - especially the Bonehunters - and so we go rounds again.

[Abyss]

So Karsa can beat Icarium in a fight, right?

- Abyss,