[Imperial Historian]

Baruk's facing down of Rake, and his cryptic comments on the path to ascension, suggest he's been around a while, and is no mean power... but then again some of the comments that come out of his mouth about time and such suggest a lesser lineage, and that he isn't truly ancient in nature, such as his comments reagrding icarium...

however the question is how long have the seguleh been absent from the city, and how long have the t'orrud cabal been around...

Darujhstan has only been around for 3000 years, Baruk refers to Icariums visit as being over a thousand years ago, but has no personal experience of it, so Baruk's under a thousand, so doesn't necessarily have to be that old.

The despots barbican, which is presumably linked to the barbican still stands, which though admitedly could be a thousand year old structure, is probably a lot younger to still be standing, 500 years?

The daru people have forgotten about the seguleh, save for vague legends, but there coinage still appears occasionally in darujhstan (crokus saw some).

There's slight conflict between the information mamot gave of a certain king being second to last of the tyrant kings, and the seguleh seconds referal to a single tyrant, not a line, which suggests the tyrant left voluntarily (I can't see a deathless tyrant with an army of seguleh being usurped), and then later his line was toppled and the council emerged.

But to me all this suggests that baruk and co haven't been around for that long, (but for longer than 200 years, rake fought the seguleh on their island about 200 years ago i think) between 200 and 1000 years but proably closer to the lower end of tht figure than the higher.

And deathless... does not necessarly mean immortal, a lifespan of 200 years for a young looking mage(tatersail looks 30ish), easily suggests a lifespan of over 500 years for an old one, and to seguleh who live in a culture where magic isn't used, where they would presumably regularly kill off the older ones (note the extreme youth of mok and senu) they would certianly seem deathless... Or they could have sworn a vow like the avowed to oppose the return of the tyrant, which would also extend there life presumably...

Personally I'd doubt crokus being of a line of kings, the cabal seem opposed to kingship, but being the great, (insert many greats here), great grandchild of one of the t'orrud cabal could be possible, just becuase mammot cant be crokus's uncle doesnt rule out a blood relationship.

[Rahvinn]

Weren't the ages of the Malazan Elite and apparent youth and vigour not influenced by chemicals? I remember in DG Duiker saying to himself that without them he would be a doddering old git by that stage.
Nok was one of the origionals, he's old by normal standards but the impression given by SE of him seems he looks more more than 50, if even that.
Maybe magery does keep the youthful appearance in some, but think of the Ceda. Granted we have no idea of how old he was yet he was portrayed as an old man.
Also, was Cotillion a mage? I dont remember him ever claiming to posess a Warren. Granted you could say entry into the Deadhouse kept him young in appearance but the ascension could not be given that credit because it was what, 80 or so years before they ascended to avoid assassination?

[Dolorous Menhir]

There are several known causes of longevity:

1. Being a mage - Tattersail, Calot. Mages seem to have tremendously increased lifespans with no known limits.

2. Ascension - clearly, once you have ascended you do not die of natural causes.

3. Association with the Azath - Deadhouse residence conferred many benefits on the original Malaz "Family", Nok & Dujek among them.

4. Alchemy - Duiker made reference to using alchemies to keep himself going. Note that this is not as effective as the other methods, Duiker continued to live while aging badly. Whereas people such as Tattersail & Calot appeared to remain eternally middle-aged.

Kallor also used alchemy to remain young - but this is not the same as using it to stay alive, because...

5. Curses - Kallor remains alive because of the curse placed on him by the three Elder Gods. Obviously this is a special case, but note that the curse was, in essence, "you shall never die of natural causes." This is not the same as "you shall never age," and it seems clear that if Kallor did not have his alchemies to keep himself vital he would literally have the body of a 120,000 year old.

So in answer to the examples you raised Rahvinn,

Duiker is (4), alchemy. Not known to have entered the Deadhouse.

Nok is (3), Deadhouse residence, with no known alchemy usage. The other non-ascendant Family members are in a similar situation - Laseen, the Crust Brothers, Hawl, possibly Dujek before he died.

Ceda is (1), he was a very powerful magic user, which by all the examples we've seen would imply a long natural lifespan. Note though that we didn't know how old the Ceda actually was, if he was even exceptionally so. There were references to previous Cedas, so we're not talking him being a massively-enduring holder of the post.

Dancer was (1) & (3), then as Cotillion he became (2). Dancer was a Shadow Dancer (hence the name), and the Shadow Dance evokes Rashan (Lostara Yil in HoC). So he had some use of magery. It seems that his organisation of the Talon was much more physical than Laseen's sorcery-based Claw (Baudin had no magic, but then Hawl did), but I'm not sure how much that relates to Dancer's own magical usage.

And of course he was a founding Family member, and so longtime Deadhouse resident. And then he ascended.

Kellanved's reign as Emperor lasted about 100 years. Though we don't know when exactly Kellanved went from ruler of Malaz City to ruler of Quon Tali to "Emperor" and so the 100 year reign began, we can safely say that the Family was in existence for much longer than those 100 years, and so its members are all at least 130-150 years old.

[frank]

I belive deathless is a very spesific way of describing their "condition" when there are so many long lived versions around. I belive we are talking about something that seems to have been less uncommon among powerful mages in older days, soulshifting. This would also explain the problem with weather there were one ore more tyrants. To the ones who knew there were one, to the ones who didn't there were many.
As for it beeing impossible to get rid of a Tyrant with his personal Seguleh army; the Seguleh might not always have been that nasty. Their way of life could be a result of them failing in D-stan.
And Crokus IS somebody spesial by birt. SE is not very big on coinsidents and he was fosterd by Mammot, looked after by Kruppe and wanted by the twins....

[Deslan]

Is it possible that the Cabal employs soul-shifting magic? This would explain why no one recognizes them and seem relatively young.

It would also be easy to make a name similar to the name they already had due to familiarity. eg, if someone calls out your name in a crowd, you tend to automatically assume it was you they were yelling at. They may just choose very similar names so that they dont get confused over the centuries of soul-shifting.

Although, this may mean that they'd have to share their bodies with other souls, such as what Quick Ben and Silverfox do. But in the case of Silverfox, she mentions that all her souls are balanced and peaceful.

[Rahvinn]

Was never sure about Dancer's magic capabilties, always assumed they came as a bonus of being the Rope, like when he offered to invest Cutters weapons, or more obviously the use of warrens to travel

Is Rashan a kind of learned warren? Shadow dancers can invoke Rashan, and Aspalar can use the warren of Shadow to travel

In terms of youth elixers, for lack of a better term, I wonder about the availability of them. Kallor uses candles for his curse and the old Guard use alchemy(anyone know its source, eg Moranth?) so surely other cultures have stumbled upon this secret.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Deslan;140409 said:

Although, this may mean that they'd have to share their bodies with other souls, such as what Quick Ben and Silverfox do. But in the case of Silverfox, she mentions that all her souls are balanced and peaceful.

They might have some kind of Mhybe-type system going on, so they don't have problems with excess souls in bodies. But that's the reason I prefer them being one continuous group of people rather than a shifting membership with the same names - it avoids these messy considerations of soul-shifting or replacement.

Rahvinn;140422 said:

In terms of youth elixers, for lack of a better term, I wonder about the availability of them. Kallor uses candles for his curse and the old Guard use alchemy(anyone know its source, eg Moranth?) so surely other cultures have stumbled upon this secret.

Don't know if we have a source for Duiker's alchemies, perhaps Kellanved gave them to him (and who knows where he got them from). I would rule out Moranth though, the Malazan-Moranth alliance was very recent and doesn't predate the Genebackis campaign. I would guess there was little to no prior contact between the groups.

I think Kallor's alchemies were KCCM. Not sure if there's any evidence of it, but it's widely believed that he used KCCM devices to destroy his Empire, and he has a deep knowledge of the KCCM derived from the scholars of his Empire. So I would guess he got the alchemies from that source, which would explain why no-one else appears to know about them.

I thought of another source of immortality

(6) Being born a Tiste Andii or a Jaghut. They seem to have indefinite natural lifespans. The Tiste Edur are stated to have a finite (though very, very, long) lifetime in MT, and we don't know about the Tiste Liosan, but I think Andii are effectively immortal. Perhaps FA are too.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Hetan;140452 said:

Hold on a minute...
Duiker was in the deadhouse with the others of the family... so I don't know why y'all think it was alchemy, and alchemy alone

Was he? DG says he was plucked from the ranks when the Empire was already formed, so he's not a Family member. We don't know he was ever in the Deadhouse, do we?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Then that contradicts Duiker's own account in DG. I'll try and find the quote.

[Onrack the breakable]

I think there is alot of suspicious evidence surrounding Crokus beyond the soldier of deaths revelations.

Some curious "facts".

1. Crokus is nearly dying from being gutted and the old lady is washing out his insides with hot towels she says his heart is failing, but when Loric heals him he says Cutters heart is very strong.

2. Crokus actually put up a more creditable fight against the T'lan Imass than Heboric did. It was his mundane weapon that failed against a T'lan Imass blade not his reflexes, even though he was caught flat footed like Heboric.

3. After Scillara has sex with him she goes to start a fire complaining her bones are chilled. Did no one else find this odd?

4. Felesin (when with Crokus and all) says about traveling thru the desert, that even though its hot, she is always freezing or something like that.

5. Crokus thanks all the gods that he doesn't have any brothers and sisters or even cousins (after meeting Kalams cousin who appeared to almost go berserk at mention of Kalams name)

This all suggests to me that even if Crokus is not THE tyrant, he may be a close relative of some Jaghut. I think Crokus is really a cousin of Raest but that is just a crazy theory of course.

[Monoch Ochem]

In my view Onrack:
1) Cutter's been favoured by Shadow (he's been in contact with Pust and Cotillion)...his prowess as an assassin has increased greatly from the roof-top thief he was before. I think associating with Shadow has benefits, hence his strong heart. Otherwise, it could be a natural thing...he's lead a very martial life as a thief.

2) The Imass targeted Heboric as a higher priority. Heboric had more aggression directed his way than Cutter. As Treach's Destriant, he proved more dangerous and had to be eliminated ASAP.

3) & 4) I took that to be the effect of the rust-leaf and the fact that the desert gets very cold at night but I'll look at that again.

5) Seems just a psychological reflection on life but I'll look at the specific context in which he said that. But I really must say that I've never come across anything that even remotely links Cutter to the Jaghut...he's never even displayed any sorcereal capabilities.

[Onrack the breakable]

I realize there are other possible explanations but there is also several of times Cutter refers to ice or being frozen and having secrets of his own which I won't mention in detail. Of course most of all Cutter says, "Beru fend" which is irritating and sounds stupid but maybe Beru has a cold aspect or something.

I admit that 1) weak +hot heart/ strong cold heart is by itself very weak evidence. And even 2-5 alone don't mean much but when you look at this and all the other evidence together you just gotta feel Crokus carries cold around him.

Specifically, I know Heboric was the higher priority and I think more were attacking him at also, but all Heboric accomplished was to make a few feline snarls, a pathetic jump, then watch himself get diced to pieces. Cutter lands on his feet and actually engages his attacker but the Imass sword just can't be stopped or apparently even deflected with a mortal dagger.

3) I'm no Dr. Ruth sex expert, but I can't recall the first or last time my bones were chilled after having sex. But I only have sex with live humans and not refridgerated objects or Jags. I live one state away from the Canadian border too so know somewhat cold winters.

5) That buy itself is like you said meaningless reflection, but taken with everything else it has the feel that SE is setting Crokus up to meet a "cousin" or somesuch.

Crokus also emulated Icarioum alot, even though Mappo the oaf thought Fiddler was more appropriate for a human to emulate. Again, by itself circumstantial and relatively meaningless, but taken all together it is suggestive.

I'm just saying it seems like SE is leading up to something with Cutter/Crokus. I'm probably wrong in all respects and SE just wrote those things because it sounded good at the time and is not part of any master plan. I'm just speculating but like most of my speculation it has at least circumstantial evidence even if a bit crazy.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I think the main hurdle to "Crokus = Jhag" is the lack of green skin and horns protruding from his mouth. If he does have Jaghut blood, it must be incredibly dilute and confer no magical ability on him at all.

Though you do have a point - reading about Crokus does leave me cold.

As for your other points:

I wouldn't read anything into Felisin and Scillara bitching about something.

The others attacked by the Imass survived gross wounds also. It's been speculated that Hood was responsible for the flies and somehow kept the victims alive long enough to receive medical aid, or that some other agent did so. Perhaps Crokus retains some kind of power-up from being the Coin Bearer.

And your other one, well you explained that yourself. The Imass just shut Heboric down. Full stop. Crokus was a low priority, and so he got time to get in a totally ineffectual blow. I wouldn't read any great significance into this - he did get literally gutted by that Imass seconds later.

Important point here - the Tyrants of Darujhistan were not Jaghut. Darujhistan was founded because Raest's tomb was said to be nearby ("born on a rumour"). You can see that this rules out Raest as a possible ruler of the town. And its age is given as only two thousand years old in GotM, which places it safely in the human era. So the Tyrant Kings, whoever they were (and it's not necessary that they were human), were almost certainly not Jaghut.

[Aptorian]

Dolorous Menhir;142824 said:

Though you do have a point - reading about Crokus does leave me cold.

Dolorous Menhir;142824 said:

Important point here - the Tyrants of Darujhistan were not Jaghut. Darujhistan was founded because Raest's tomb was said to be nearby ("born on a rumour"). You can see that this rules out Raest as a possible ruler of the town. And its age is given as only two thousand years old in GotM, which places it safely in the human era. So the Tyrant Kings, whoever they were (and it's not necessary that they were human), were almost certainly not Jaghut.

Actually, the Darujistan we know of doesn't seem so old, but it has been founded upon something much older.

The fancy magical jewellery Kruppe gives the Mybe to soothe her was found in the caverns under Darujistan. It seems her ancestors, now thought of as protective spiritgods, resided in that place. For all we know, the Mybe's ancestors were Imass and their Tyrant was a Jaghut playing God.

There's no proof of this I'm just pointing out there's more to Darujistan than meets the eye.

Personally I hope the Tyrant is something else, I'd really like Crokus to turn into a well meaning dictator and warmongerer. He has it in him, he just needs to get a little more cynical... which shouldn't take long.

[Monoch Ochem]

Good point on the caverns of Darujhistan Apt. The gas conduits and the people tending them suggest that there is some buried civilization's ruins underneath. But of all who Cutter has come into contact with, how come noone has detected any Jhag traits within him? Nothing visible or magical.... not even his height. Mammot, his uncle, a High Priest and erudite scholar in arcane knowledge appeared to have only been concerned for his nephew on a more sociological way. Not Kruppe, the genius. Would not Icarium have sensed something of his kinship?

I know it's no more than speculation but this is debate so these are my general thoughts...

[Onrack the breakable]

Well, I wasn't thinking that if he was of Jag blood that Crokus was even half blood, it seems the green skin and tusks are fullblood Jaghut. But if there can be halfblood Jags, assuming even that human+Jag can produce offspring and that halfblood offspring isnt sterile (alot of assumptions) then there may be those of Jaghut blood who do not have any noticable Jaghut traits aside from an affinity for cold.

I didn't care too much about Crokus at first because he started out so clueless but lucky (the GOTM where he was coinbearer for oponn) and then he went to being worldweary, brokenhearted, miserable and feeling sorry for himself.

Crokus seemed more interesting and less one dimensional around demons too. Which is why I've had second thoughts and decided that I sort of like him, so long as hes got a mischievious demon around. It was really sad when Greyfrog and Cutter parted but the book didn't even cover the goodbye. Just when L'oric asked Greyfrog if he'd said his goodbyes, Greyfrog said, "yes."

If it wasn't for the interaction between Cutter/Crokus and Greyfrog that whole episode thru the desert would've been pretty pointless and better off just summarized in a single sentence or two. I still think Greyfrog would be better with Crokus than with L'oric. It just seems that L'oric wouldn't grasp even a tiny fraction of Greyfrogs jokes. Or even realize a joke had been told most of the time.

So, for magical traits, I have to say Crokus has an affinity for demons (and perhaps even a commanding ability- (remember he also borrowed a hound of shadow from Cotillion)which Mammot seemed well aware of. Like Mammot said to Crokus about Moby, "and I've had about enough from that monster hanging in your hair.."

Icarium did sort of keep an eye on Crokus, so he wouldn't harm Pust to the point he'd be attacked by shadows. But then it seems that Icarium would treat Crokus the same whether he was human or jag blood. After all Icarium himself in only half Jaghut, the other half Tiste Edur for grey skin perhaps, or even human, or maybe elder god or something more bizarre. Probably Icariums genetics are discussed elsewhere in a thread I'm too lazy to search for.

Anyone else hope that Cutter/Crokus finds a new demon and one with a sense of humor? I think he's been pretty lucky in that regard so far. Except there arent any demons around him now, let alone humorous ones.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I hope Cutter finds a new demon that kills him.