[Monoch Ochem]

Ganoes and Tavore both lack legitimacy under the current structure. Ganoes has assumed the title of High Fist following Dujek's death but this wasn't Laseen's official decree. Her's confers that title on Korbolo Dom, who has declared himself the ranking High Fist. Of course Tavore would outrank Ganoes, even if they were 'legit', as the Adjunct (being the extension of the Empress' will) outranks a High Fist.

As it stands though, the Empire's two armies to speak of are illegitimate. Sounds familiar? Like Whiskeyjack and Dujek off to fight the Pannion Seer? Like the Perish said, Tavore's 14th is not enough...something bigger's afoot, was we all know. What's Laseen up to though? Is it really possible that she actually has one working brain cell not simply triggered everytime she has an imperial orgasm?

I hope Nil and Nether wake up in time to bloody the noses of those weak-chinned Untan muppets off to exact this so-called Wickan pogrom.

[Abyss]

Actually, Dom has set himself up to be a much more loved personae than Laseen. She's a former Claw. He's a military hero.

And Rel has subverted the Claw with the Black Glove/Hand/Something, so her power base is in question.

BUT, way back in MoI, it was implied by Dujk and WJ that a conflict with the CG was always anticipated by them and Laseen, amongst others i assume. And while plans went awry, one has to wonder whether the Dom/Rel move isn't part of Laseen's master plan, or rather, whether she's already working to counter them, even tho' she seemed desperate for Kalam and Tavore's help.

- Abyss, believes EVERYTHING is part of a master plan. Even lunch!

[Monoch Ochem]

Master plan... and the Wickans were deemed a worthy expense in all of this? Nil and Nether and the power they could weild? This to massage Krbolo Dom's old grude??

Dunno Abyss..

[Blend]

I tend to want to agree with Abyss... And then divert a little.... I've been saying all along that Laseen herself is only a pawn in the whole thing. I really think that Kellanved (i.e. Shadowthrone) and Dancer (i.e. Cotillion) are still behind the scenes and in control of everything. They WANT the world to believe that they hate the Empress, that Shadow is waging a small, personal war against the Empire because she supposedly tried to kill them. I really still think that they're behind all of this, pulling the puppet strings.

That Laseen would strike against the Wickans makes sense. The Emperor had a certain affinity with them, or something like that, and so it would make sense that a capricious Empress Laseen would strike out at anything that would still hold any sort of loyalty to the Emperor.

Korbolo Dom and Mallick Rel, in this train of thought, would either be necessary for their battle against the CG, which everyone knew was impending, or they were necessary in order to create a situation in which Tavore would forsake her loyalty to the Empress in order for her to take her army where it needs to go without the Empress seeming to lose interest in parts of her Empire that she should be protecting. It could also be that perhaps they hold some sort of not yet seen power or prowess that will be necessary in the battles to come, and so sacrificing them at this early juncture is unnecessary. I'm convinced, as Abyss is, that it's all just part of Kellanved's big master plan to take over the universe... Or something like that.

[Rat Mentor]

I seem to remember that after Ganoes left to join the army in was mentioned that Travore worshiped him and wanted to emulate him in some way. I'm sure in was Felisin who stated this in a conversation to Heboric.

Also when or if the two respective armies meet I would think that Tavore will become the leader, maybe over time, so enabling Ganoes to do some undercover Ascendancy.

[Abyss]

Actually, while i have no doubt that Kellanved and Dancer have their own Master Plan, Laseen and the Malazan Elite likely have/had a different one.

It seems Kel/Cot used control of the Empire to accumulate the resources to explore the Azath and subsequently seize control of Meanas and become gods. Because the CG would destroy the warrens and thus them, they are in conflict with him, but i think their plan is longer reaching than that.

On the other hand, it seems that Laseen's concern is for the Empire, and the CG (or at least the Pannion Domin) threatened it, so she, Tays, Dujek, WJ and whomever else was in on it came up with a way to ensure that Rake and co. participated in that conflict. Whether she has a bigger plan is up for debate, but seems likely. It's just that losing Dujek and WJ, and 7C, not getting Darujhistan, and Rel's subversion of the Claw may have derailed Laseen's best plans.

- Abyss, prefers master plans that involve red wine.

[The Rope]

I meant to say that Laseen is preferred over dom and rel by those in the know - The armies of the 14th and Onearm's Host.

Come to think of it, Paran didn't really want to control the Host, he kinda accepted the Rank of High Fist because it was what the army (and apparently Onearm himself) wanted. So it makes sense he would relinquish control to Tavore (ithink he mentioned something before that indicated he believed her to be a better military commander... like "Tavore always used to say..." or something like that)
In any case, his ascendancy trumps her rank, so it doesnt matter if she is Adjunct... and besides, as it was said, they are both "disgraced" so technically have no rank. But anyway, as Dom stated, it is not an Adjunct's duty to lead an army, it is a High Fist's.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I'm not convinced that Laseen has any motivations beyond maintaining her own rule. She seems willing to ensure that even if it harms the interests of the Empire.

I am taken with this idea of a huge master plan that the Rope advances, that would be very impressive. There have been hints that Laseen, Cotillion & Ammanas have still been working together the whole time, but BH shook my faith in Laseen and made it hard to believe she's capable of that.

Rat Mentor;139338 said:

I seem to remember that after Ganoes left to join the army in was mentioned that Travore worshiped him and wanted to emulate him in some way. I'm sure in was Felisin who stated this in a conversation to Heboric.

I think it was the other way round, if I remember right Tavore & Ganoes were talking and the exchange was something like

"Felisin still adores you"

then

"She'll know better one day"

as the response. Or something like that.

[Illuyankas]

I do remember both your reference, DM, and Felisin talking about Tavore emulating Ganoes - probably somewhere in DHG.

[Jheral]

I'm not sure if this is the one you've been referring to, but here's a quote for you:

House of Chains, on p704, said:

It seemed, to Felisin, that her sister had never been a child, had never known a playful moment. She had stepped into their brother's shadow and sought only to remain there, and when Ganoes had been sent off for schooling, Tavore underwent a subtle transformation. No longer in Ganoes's shadow, it was as if she had become his shadow, severed and haunting.

And for those who care, here's the part Dol'Men mentioned (I think. It could be that I've missed some part, as it's not exactly the same. Anyway, this is the only place I can remember where the two talk in the books.):

Gardens of the Moon, on p 49-50, said:

He asked, 'And how is Felisin?'
'At her studies. She's not heard of your return. She will be very exited, then crushed to hear of the shortness of your visit.
'Is she your rival now, Tavore?'
His sister snorted, turning away. 'Felisin? She's too soft for this world, brother. For any world, I think. She's not changed. She'll be happy to see you.'

[Rat Mentor]

My thanks Jheral....

[Onrack the breakable]

Whats with questioning the legitimacy of Ganoes as High Fist?

The whole army gave him that authority so it seems he is one of the very few mortals in the Malazan books whos authority actually IS legitimate. Laseem legit? Don't make me laugh, she is a traitorous scumbag usurper. Tavores authority was initially based on Laseem's illegitimate authority but now seems more in the nature of Ganoes and truely legitimate in itself.

Unfortunately, now Ganoes is stuck with an army and I don't see how he can get easily untangled unless the army gets wiped out. So he will likely be more botched up as master of the deck than he already is. He really needs at least a few hundred years to get over his utter lack of qualifications ( other than stubborn ignorance as master of the deck) and general stupidity. With an army I think his development is going to be even more stunted, unless it actually forces him to learn things alot faster instead of just sitting on his butt in Darujistan.

Still his new army rank seems a complication to his development. I just don't like how all these guys and gals are going from liuetenents and captains to High Fists. Maybe its common in the military of banana republics but in the US military no one skips a rank let alone half a dozen. Of course our secretary of defence and President who controls all the armed forces may be a draft dodger or college drop out but thats on the civilian side where graft and corruption begins. Thats just an example, not meaning to get off into various forms of real-life goverment and their countless flaws.

[Dark Mac]

Onrack the breakable;142362 said:

I just don't like how all these guys and gals are going from liuetenents and captains to High Fists. Maybe its common in the military of banana republics but in the US military no one skips a rank let alone half a dozen.

Do you know absolutely nothing about American history? The reason for no promotions like that is that the US isn't in a major war. You don't have to look back any further than World War 2 and people like Bradley to find examples of such promotions.

[Onrack the breakable]

You're right. Stepping into dead mens shoes is an exception. And also just prior to WW2 I believe the US army was reduced down to a bare skeleton and what general officers were paper pushers. Wasn't Eisenhower a major just before the war started also? It wasn't just Bradley, it was like there were no generals at that time other than a few political appointees incapable of leading a troop of soldiers into a brothel. Talk about cost cutting.

Ok, since the end of WW2 then. Name one skipped rank.

[The Rope]

Captain to fist to High Fist... he skipped one rank. The ranks are different than how the US army's are. And it isn't such a skip from Fist to High Fist.
Every company/section of the army (whatever they call it..) already had a Fist, and the Fists all agreed that Paran would qualify as the ranking Fist, and since didn't have his company or whatever, would be more suited to rank of High Fist. They needed one, and all the Fsts were willing to defer to Paran, so - shabam we have High Fist.

[Falco]

Please, everyone seems to forgetting Dujek's logs or whatever. Clearly they would have something to the point:

"Paran is uberpowerful, and quite a smart, loyal, trustworthy etc. officer. Must recommend making him Fist/High Fist etc."

I presume that would be the major basis for his election of the High Fist.

[The Rope]

Basically the reason they were willing to defer to him - Dujek obviously respected him like a right-hand man or successor...

[Falco]

Besides, it has been well-established that ranks aren't that well-adhered to/followed in the Malazan Army- they play fast-and-loose with it as it suits them.

[Xaspian]

He had just killed a Goddess and saved the lives of half the Host. Although, his last command did offically get completely wiped out in Coral...

[Abyss]

He's the MoD. For all we know he could walk the army into a convenient Azath House, put them all to sleep and wake them up when he needs them.

Plus he's got competent Fists (no pun intended), so it's not like he can't bugger off to kill a god or snog Apsalar or play poker in Darujhistan and then come back. Dujek left the army more than once with Tays to meet with QB and Kalam on 7C.

Tavore was 'Adjunct', and not meant to command armies, but she was clearly suited to it, probably moreso than Lorn before her. She may be less likely to bugger off from her people now that she's broken with Laseen.

- Abyss, understands HR.