[SilchasRuin]

we dont know how long the cult of dessembrae has been around it could be like sister of cold nights did when she became nightchill and worked with the malazans that desembrae became dassem and became the first sword although since he was hood aspected at one point or had a strong connection with hood i doubt this theory.....but for a recently ascended god it does seem werird that he would already be used as a swearword by seven cities natives

[Bl1nder]

All very curious, no? I swear SE did it on purpose

[Abyss]

Blanking - Was there a Rath'Dessembrae in MoI?

I'm wondering whether 'Dessembrae' is like the original Apsalar (Imassalar) - the god existsed, was mostly forgotten, then Dassem comes along and is inadvertently woven into the aspect.

Otherwise, it's not unthinkable that his reputation as the Knight of Hood, time leading the Malazan armies as First Sword, and mysterious circumstances of his supposed death, led people to think of him as having ascended to godhood and worthy of worship, however subtle. As so he ascends anyways, whether he intended to or not.

Rake, on the other hand, was always an ascendent. His being worshipped leaves it open whether he is 'really' a god or just worshipped as one. Either way, he's as powerful as a god.

The MT hinted clash between these two will be interesting.

- Abyss, isn't a god but plays one on TV.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Abyss;135478 said:

Blanking - Was there a Rath'Dessembrae in MoI?

Don't think so. Not sure.

Quote

Otherwise, it's not unthinkable that his reputation as the Knight of Hood, time leading the Malazan armies as First Sword, and mysterious circumstances of his supposed death, led people to think of him as having ascended to godhood and worthy of worship, however subtle. As so he ascends anyways, whether he intended to or not.

The problem with that is that Ultor is not popularly identified with Dessembrae. People don't connect the two, so public worship of Dessembrae wouldn't have caused Dassem to ascend. I think?

[Xaspian]

There was a Rath'Dessembrae.

[Malaclypse]

Rath'Dessembrae is one of the 14 members of the Mask Council.

Dassem had his own cult before leaving Hood's service. You don't know that the hypothetical people of Wu don't connect the two Worshippers is what separates a regular Ascendant from a God.

as for the title of this thread and my thoughts on it, yeah, Rake and Dessembrae are alike in being 'deniers', they reject their godhood and it attendant responibilities but they are still Gods by virtue of being worshipped Ascendants

edited for clarification.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Malaclypse;135500 said:

Dassem had his own cult before leaving Hood's service. You don't know that the hypothetical people of Wu don't connect the two Worshippers is what separates a regular Ascendant from a God.

Corabb knew who Dassem Ultor and Dessembrae were, yet he did not know they were one and the same. I would think this would apply to the vast majority of people in the world.

Thus people do not worship Dessembrae because they know he is Dassem Ultor - and you can't argue that only Malazans know of the link and so constitute his only worshippers, since there was a Rath'Dessembrae in Capustan (confirmed above) and so we know Dessembrae is worshipped outside Malazan territories.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Sorry, I wrote Leoman in first and changed it right away.

[Bl1nder]

Actually, re-reading MoI, in there it is explained why Hood betrays Dassem, apperntly desembrae was starting to reach Hood in power, and thats why he betrayed him.

[Aptorian]

Or, like with Raest, Hood doesn't like that his servants have other interests or engagements that don't coincide with Deaths.

[Abyss]

I had thought the 'Dassem came to rival Hood for power' thing was only voiced as a theory in the story.

Because the other version might be that Dassem and Hood had a arting of ways over something and when Hood recruited his daughter for the Chaining, things went poop from there.

Most likely, it's a more complex combo of both.

- Abyss, hates it when things go poop.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Abyss;135743 said:

- Abyss, hates it when things go poop.

I share the sentiment, having to use the same toilet as 11 other people on friday mornings after curry night is NOT fun, I can tell you.

[Morgoth]

nownow let us not move that far away from topic, eh

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Lol, sorry, steering back on topic:

Bl1nder;133758 said:

Then he adds "Dessembrae is a reluctant god, just like Rake with the Tiste Andii", would that imply that Rake doesnt wish to lead the Andii, but does it for some other reason, or that he might become a god?

I seem to remember reading that Rake leads the Andii through a sense of feeling like he has to, because no-one else could do it properly- to give them a sense of purpose and protect them from complete despair. Sort of like Plato's philosopher kings who lead not because they want to but because they don't want anyone else less qualified to do it.

[Malaclypse]

Abyss;135743 said:

I had thought the 'Dassem came to rival Hood for power' thing was only voiced as a theory in the story.

Because the other version might be that Dassem and Hood had a arting of ways over something and when Hood recruited his daughter for the Chaining, things went poop from there.

Most likely, it's a more complex combo of both.

- Abyss, hates it when things go poop.

well, I tend to think that K'rul is a reliable witness see below.

Quote

. We have lost allies in our foolishness.
Dassem Ultor, who was broken by Hood’s taking of his daughter
at the Time of the Chaining – this was a devastating blow. Dassem
Ultor, the First Sword reborn—
‘Do you think,’ she asked slowly, ‘that Hood would have taken her
for the Chaining, had I answered the summons?’ Am I, she wondered,
to blame for Dassem Ultor’s loss?
Hood alone could answer that question, Lady Envy. And he’d likely
lie, in any case. Dassem, his Champion – Dessembrae – had grown to
rival his power. There is little value in worrying such questions, beyond
the obvious lesson that inaction is a deadly choice. Consider: from
Dassem’s fall, a mortal empire now totters on the edge of chaos.
From Dassem’s fall, the Shadow Throne found a new occupant. From
Dassem’s fall . . . ah, well, the tumbling dominoes are almost countless.
It is done.

bolds mine.

ETA: bah, I'll fix it, gimme a sec. [second edit: actually just highlight it to read, it's too much hassle to fix.]

[Bl1nder]

So at the end of the day, Dassem is alot like Rake

[Abyss]

There's definitely an element of tragedy to both their stories. It seems neither one set out to become a god, but accumulated power out of perceived necessity, as opposed to Kellanved who it seems was aiming for godhood/acsension from day one.

- Abyss, internut god.