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Creation Vs Evolution

#621 User is offline   Mezla PigDog 

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 04:15 PM

Gem Windcaster;354361 said:

I'm sorry but that's your opinion. I reserve my right to doubt this so called evidence, until I do see a fish wake up as a monkey (I don't see how that would be impossible if evolution does exist the way you say). ;)


Which only proves that you haven't got a clue about the scientific conclusions that you are disputing.

And this brings me to my answer to the ORIGINAL post which was somthing like, "why don't scientists argue their point and defend themselves better against the "others?" [And there's no way of putting this without sounding rude but it's why scientists don't engage well with religious/non-scientific people, which may well be a terrible flaw but I'm quite happy with it and won't apologise (and I may well break forum rules of flaming or whatever here)] It's because they're frickin stupid!

EDIT - Okay, that's a wimpy way out! What I'm trying to say is that to someone who's quite highly trained in the scientific system, it's very hard not to see the disputers simply as idiots. In which case, I think scientists just find it all too frustrating to engage in these debates (we are scientists after all!)
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#622 User is offline   Kurald 

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 04:27 PM

Gem Windcaster;354406 said:

I don't really agree with this. I have reason to believe there are other motives behind the acceptance of the theory of evolution besides merit. But since I can't really prove it and I gets pretty conspiratorial without evidence, I won't push that one. I'll just put it down as a reserved notation.


How do you have reason to believe this without evidence? Can you explain what reason you have?


Gem Windcaster;354406 said:

Creationism and evolution aren't opposites in my mind. That is why I don't set them against each other.


Creationism and evolution are not compatible, no matter how you see them in your mind.

To quote wikipedia: Creationism is a religious belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe were created in their original form by a deity (often the Abrahamic God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam) or deities, whose existence is presupposed.

That means creationists don't believe things evolved over time from simple to more complex organisms.
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#623 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 04:29 PM

Gem Windcaster;354406 said:

I don't really agree with this. I have reason to believe there are other motives behind the acceptance of the theory of evolution besides merit. But since I can't really prove it and I gets pretty conspiratorial without evidence, I won't push that one. I'll just put it down as a reserved notation.

Dunno about scientists' motives, but creationists' motives are clear...

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There it is.

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#624 User is offline   Gothos 

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 04:51 PM

Gem,
going back to the "connecting the dots" argument of yours. the nature of dots and the space between them is that you can never describe a line by a finite number of points, once you make a division and mark another set of additional points between the extremes, there's always points in between. that's why a line is an infinite group of points sharing a common characteristic.
borrowing the dots and connecting them into the theory of evolution, or, in fact, anything that describes something moving, either in space or time, you replace the lines and points with processes and recognizable states. the constantly moving (more or less) nature of time makes it impossible to observe a process at any one point; if you freeze it, it stops happening and what you see is just another stage of it. processes are described by the entry state and the resulting state, what the process constitutes is derived from these along with perhaps observations inbetween set extremes.
now. let's get on to the "real big steps" that "have not yet been observed". evidence of big steps is lying all over the planet; if you want to see them for yourself, you'd need a lot of coffee to stay awake for a really long time, now for me that sounds a lot like trying to make a fearful rejection sound like scientific curiousity. tsk tsk. it has been proven that it happens in smaller steps, why would you really disbelieve the big steps? when you turn on your lamp you see that it emits light which lets you see. now take it a step further and look at the Sun - oh it emits light allright! and the stars - yet further away, but they emit light like you'd expect them to as an energy source, and I think you at least agree that in that far off other corner of the Universe, an energy source like that emits light no matter if it's bigger, smaller, stronger, weaker, and that we could be able to see it with the right instruments or actually being there - being sure it's the same good ol' buddy Light and our great friends, the eyes and the brain.
or take gravity. commonly and bluntly speaking, the force that pulls masses together (it's a rough approximation of it, bear with me), that it exists is pretty obvious, and mark that it was discovered and described long before humans knew the actual mechanisms that make gravity work like it does. that can be also said about light.
now, faced with these thoughts, when you look at evolution, can you really say that the evidence doesn't justify acknowledging it? sure, we may not know the exact shape of it to every last bit of the processes that constitute it, but it shouldn't stop you from acknowledging it as scientifically sound and worth looking more into? accept the current face of it, delve deeper, describe it better, but DON'T make up things just out of your head to fill the gaps, like creationists do.

also. being a proud ( ;-) ) human being I don't think there's anything we won't eventually find out, sometime (unless we don't survive long enough). unless, of course, the Universe is actually n-dimensional :-)
though... a wild OT thought just now... would it be even possible to modify the human organism to perceive more dimensions that what we perceive now? ;)
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#625 User is offline   stone monkey 

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 11:20 AM

Gem Windcaster;354406 said:

I don't really agree with this. I have reason to believe there are other motives behind the acceptance of the theory of evolution besides merit.


Er.. What does that mean? You appear to be flying off into the realms of nutjob conspiracy theory here. The reason evolution is overwhelmingly accepted by the scientific world (and anyone with any sense) is that it works. Not because there's some grand conspiracy by a self appointed intellectual elite of atheists and communists to stamp out religious belief - as the YEC loons at Conservapedia would suggest. It makes predictions that can be either confirmed or falsified - and the falsified predictions then suggest new theory as to why they've been falsified. Creationism, of whatever stripe, has never been able to do this; so it fails on lack of merit.

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I don't think the choice of standpoint matters here. creationism is what it is. I am beginning to think that the way you define creationism, I am not a creationist in a sense that I want it to 'beat' evolution. Creationism and evolution aren't opposites in my mind. That is why I don't set them against each other.


You're the only one who doesn't. Given that they're two competing (and mutually exclusive) explanations for the process of how living things got into the form they're currently in; they would have to be set against one another.

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I think the idea of 'intelligent design' is much more interesting to discuss than creationism. Theoretically, it could be argued as strongly as evolution in a sense. (not setting the concepts against each other, of course ;) )


No it isn't and no it can't. *sigh* Intelligent Design is Creationism. Just dressed up in pseudo-scientific clothes to fool the credulous. You might want to look into the history of the movement, particularly in refence to the infamous "Wedge Document" that was written by the Discovery Institute. Intelligent Design proponents have yet to make any claims that haven't been refuted and certainly haven't made any predictions.

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Scientifically, we might have a problem finding answers. On the other hand, a certain source that I trust greatly states that nothing is impossible for humans, endeavor-wise.


What is science but a human endeavour? You seem to be implying that it's something else; which makes no sense. Which means that science might find the answers you seek (or might have already found them) but because of you're antipathy to the scientific method you would't actually give them any credence. The truth doesn't have to be something you like, after all.
If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do. If some one maintains that two and two are five, or that Iceland is on the equator, you feel pity rather than anger, unless you know so little of arithmetic or geography that his opinion shakes your own contrary conviction. … So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants. Bertrand Russell

#626 User is offline   Cougar 

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 12:42 PM

stone monkey;355882 said:

No it isn't and no it can't. *sigh* Intelligent Design is Creationism. Just dressed up in pseudo-scientific clothes to fool the credulous. You might want to look into the history of the movement, particularly in refence to the infamous "Wedge Document" that was written by the Discovery Institute. Intelligent Design proponents have yet to make any claims that haven't been refuted and certainly haven't made any predictions.


Not quite SM whilst I agree on almost all of the points you make, this isn't quite true. Creationism is inextricablly linked to the existence of a divine being. We could have been intelligently designed by other sentient creatures rather than a God. Don't get me wrong: I don't believe this, I think we are a fluke; a random conjunction of circumstances, but I just wanted to make the distinction. I know this alien scientist theory sounds highly implausible but creationists would do well to remember there is as much hard evidence for it as there is for the existence of God.

I do agree that pretty much all intelligent design hypotheses are related to creationism in all but name though, excepting Pastafarianism.
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#627 User is offline   stone monkey 

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 01:15 PM

Sorry, but your logic fails. If we and every living thing on earth were the result of tampering by aliens (or whatever); where did they come from? Did they evolve or were they "created" by a previous set of beings? What can we infer about them based on their actions and the methods they used? All perfectly straightforward questions that ID has completely failed to address.

It's easy to understand why this is the case, of course. Because attempting to extend the knowledge of our origins (or indeed anything) is not what the people behind ID are about. Their self avowed purpose is to destroy science and replace it with religion - read the Wedge Document, it says precisely that. Biology is just the one they've gone after first.

I have no objections to ID being discussed in Religious Education or Philosophy classes; which is where it belongs. It's not science and never has been.
If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do. If some one maintains that two and two are five, or that Iceland is on the equator, you feel pity rather than anger, unless you know so little of arithmetic or geography that his opinion shakes your own contrary conviction. … So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants. Bertrand Russell

#628 User is offline   Cougar 

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 01:50 PM

I'm afraid you have missed the point of what I was saying SM, I should have been clearer. I'm not arguing that ID should be considered as a valid scientific argument I'm arguing that there is a difference in terminology between the intelligent design of life on earth and Creationism. That's all.

You are of course correct to highlight the question: if we were intelligently designed by the Spaghetti Monster or whom ever, then how did the creators come to exist. I didn't really think this needed mentioning as it's so bleedin' obvious.

I think the most obviously flawed element of ID argument is highlighted by the old 'Paley's Watch' type theory (although Cicero, Voltaire and Decarte were just as guilty). When Paley argued that in the same way that a complex mechanism like a watch requires a designer and maker so do the complex systems of the universe and of biology. One would not assume upon finding a watch that it had simply come into existence unbidden this he offered as proof that the universe had been designed.

Now this has been argued to death and the counter arguments are too numberous to reproduce here (although Liz might just say 'It's just STOOOPID!' and stamp her feet). The point I'd like to make is that the explantion of design is viewed from an entirely human view point. We are unable to extricate the fact of our existence from the question and we are unable to ask it from the perspective of an observer, or to compare our existence in this universe to the existence/non-existence of life in any other. Moreover the watch is created for a purpose, since we have no known purpose it is impossible to say whether we are complex and well designed or accidentally occuring conjunctions of organic matter asking dumbass questions.

The truth, for me, is that the very fact that we exist to ask the question negates the idea of making an argument based soley on the fact that we exist.
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#629 User is offline   stone monkey 

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 02:22 PM

Cougar;356011 said:

it is impossible to say whether we are complex and well designed or accidentally occuring conjunctions of organic matter asking dumbass questions.


My money's been on the latter for about as long as I've been able to frame the question. It's one of the things that, I feel, makes humans so amazing is that we're all just (semi) randomly arrived at collections of protoplasm, whose brains evolved to solve the problems of the african savanna 200,000 years ago; and yet we're able to ask, and sometimes answer, deep and interesting questions about the universe and our place in it.

That is far more interesting, satisfying and all around wonderful, to my mind, than us being merely the purpose built Lords of Creation.
If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do. If some one maintains that two and two are five, or that Iceland is on the equator, you feel pity rather than anger, unless you know so little of arithmetic or geography that his opinion shakes your own contrary conviction. … So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants. Bertrand Russell

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 02:36 PM

Although I wouldn't mind being a Lord of Creation, I think the best supporting evidence for us being randomly occuring is the eye. Darwin (although he contradicts himself a paragraph later by explaining it) said he couldn't conceive how something as perfect as the human eye could have come into existence through evolution. Oh really? Have you ever got soap in it? or stuck a pen in one? If we'd have been designed you'd expect the eye to be somewhat more robust, also, how about gills, I could totally use gills or perhaps even something as simple as being able to survive anywhere on the planet we are confined to...no? What about sperm, why make sperm so intollerant of temperature that you have to put the most vulnerable part of a males anatomy in a pouch of elbow skin.
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#631 User is offline   stone monkey 

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 02:46 PM

I tend not to stick things in my eyes anymore. Although one of the advantages of wearing glasses is that it makes it more difficult... Have you considered an eye-patch?

Not all mammals have external testes; elephant and whales, amongst others iirc have internal ones. I very much doubt external ones would be all that useful - for streamlining purposes, that is - if you were a whale.
If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do. If some one maintains that two and two are five, or that Iceland is on the equator, you feel pity rather than anger, unless you know so little of arithmetic or geography that his opinion shakes your own contrary conviction. … So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants. Bertrand Russell

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 02:49 PM

Ha ha ball drag, also having a drooping external 2m penis might cause problems!
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Posted 21 July 2008 - 03:29 PM

One of the more interesting creationist theories I've come across was the subject of an essay I wrote in my Philosophy of Religion course, which essentially says that God created the world with divine foreknowledge allowing for evolution to take over and create everything exactly in the way it has. This is why evolution appears to exist - because it does, but this evolution is actually all just a part of God's long-term plan.

The obvious Occam's razor counter-argument aside, I love this argument nearly as much as I love the one that says everything was created 5000 years ago by God to look exactly as it does now, coal reserves and all, just to give the illusion of longeivity. It just goes to show that there really is no point even bothering trying to reason with some people. ;)
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#634 User is offline   stone monkey 

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 03:43 PM

It's the ultimate in having your cake and eating it. And when you ask a creationist what reason God could possibly have for going about things a pointlessly stupid way, they say, "Well, He moves in mysterious ways..."
If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do. If some one maintains that two and two are five, or that Iceland is on the equator, you feel pity rather than anger, unless you know so little of arithmetic or geography that his opinion shakes your own contrary conviction. … So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants. Bertrand Russell

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 03:46 PM

I hate that phrase. It's just so intellectually lazy. It says 'I don't want to think'. That's the attitude that disgusts me the most.
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#636 User is offline   Cougar 

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 03:55 PM

stone monkey;356202 said:

"Well, He moves in mysterious ways..."


Yeah and so does Michael Jackson, but I wouldn't want to open my self to his eternal love
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#637 User is offline   Cold Iron 

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 01:53 AM

Some evolution in action:

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/07/10/f...-evolution.html
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#638 User is offline   Draconus and K'rul 

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 07:10 PM

stone monkey;356057 said:

My money's been on the latter for about as long as I've been able to frame the question. It's one of the things that, I feel, makes humans so amazing is that we're all just (semi) randomly arrived at collections of protoplasm, whose brains evolved to solve the problems of the african savanna 200,000 years ago; and yet we're able to ask, and sometimes answer, deep and interesting questions about the universe and our place in it.

That is far more interesting, satisfying and all around wonderful, to my mind, than us being merely the purpose built Lords of Creation.


I don't know, SM. I doubt that I could ever feel that way. Such a prospect doesn't not seem satisfying or wonderful to me at all. In a world where only blind Chance rules, is there really any purpose? Chance has no structure, no emotion, no intelligence. It's indiscriminate. Chance doesn't have purpose, just good timing. The idea of deep and interesting questions about the universe and our place in it is only an illusion. The question of purpose is irrelevant since Chance does not need purpose. Whether we live or die is decided only by luck and the time in between is just as meaningless as the events themselves. Such a perspective seems slightly depressing to me.

I think that I understand your problem with the whole being created for the purpose of being suborinate to a higher power. Who wants to be suborinate to anything? Such a prospect would seem likely oppressive if it hadn't been for the whole free will concept. Because for the most part (at least without the presence of external forces), we decide what we do--not chance. This is why I do not see any problem with this idea and disagree with the idea of Chance ruling everything.
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#639 User is offline   Mezla PigDog 

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 07:35 PM

Draconus and K said:

Such a perspective seems slightly depressing to me.


You could also look at it as quite liberating. No purpose except that which you choose to make for yourself!
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Posted 22 July 2008 - 09:32 PM

I'm not trying to insult you Draconus and Krul but the idea you are showing is what has kept man clinging to religion even though he knows it is not rational. When Nitesche said god is dead he was right but there are caves where his shadow will linger for generations to come. Rational man has rejected the need for a god but our animalistic fear of the unknown, our deep desire for purpose in a universe occuring entirely by chance makes us hang desperately on to the idea of god.
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