malazan high mages
#1
Posted 28 September 2006 - 05:07 PM
does anybody thinks the amount of malazan high mages 2 taschren and quick ben is a bit low in gotm darujistan has with including vorcan 10 high mages(assumuing the torrud cabal is high mage) the 7c rebellion had like 4-5 hmages kant remember both the letheri and the edur had quite some good mages in recruting area as large a their empire you should say they schoul have like 100-200 hmages and muchmore normal mages also in gotm the say the empire has hundreds of legions and legions are at what i can find 7000-9000 men yet in latter books their military seems very low in dg there is mentioned the amount of troops is increased yet in the book the malazan got slaughter mostly this goes on in all books anybody got thought about this?
#4
Posted 28 September 2006 - 06:25 PM
Well, do you remember the siege of Pale? That cost the Empire 4 High Mages.
Two more were lost in the course of GotM, and others were referred to as dying earlier in the Genebackan campaign.
The Empire has fought, and is fighting, extremely costly wars on many fronts. The mortality rate of mages is massive. They die fast, and are replenished slowly. And you have to remember the Empire has been grinding away for over 100 years. Who knows how many High Mages have fallen over that time.
That's the why the Empire doesn't have very many any more. Because they all died. Tavore was sent to retake Seven Cities, an entire continent, with zero magical support. None at all.
There's what, Tayschrenn, QB, and maybe Bottle left as the major talents of the Empire.
Two more were lost in the course of GotM, and others were referred to as dying earlier in the Genebackan campaign.
The Empire has fought, and is fighting, extremely costly wars on many fronts. The mortality rate of mages is massive. They die fast, and are replenished slowly. And you have to remember the Empire has been grinding away for over 100 years. Who knows how many High Mages have fallen over that time.
That's the why the Empire doesn't have very many any more. Because they all died. Tavore was sent to retake Seven Cities, an entire continent, with zero magical support. None at all.
There's what, Tayschrenn, QB, and maybe Bottle left as the major talents of the Empire.
#5
Posted 28 September 2006 - 07:46 PM
plus the claw are going to be sent in before a battle or seige to kill mages
and who knows how many are on koreli
and Tavore had a otataral sword which is why she didnt need magic support
and who knows how many are on koreli
and Tavore had a otataral sword which is why she didnt need magic support
#6
Posted 28 September 2006 - 08:45 PM
There's a ref somewhere that back in the Emporer's day they had entire batallions of mages. By GotM/DG they have 'cadres' and minor talent squad mages.
BUT... note that towards the end of TB, one of Laseen's Untan flunkies (the one who was sheboinging Keneb's wife) mentions that they have been fighting the Edur at sea by augmenting the mage complement on the Malazan fleet. It's left open that the Malazans aren't doing as well as the flunky claims, but it's certainly suggestive that they aren't quite out of cadre level or higher mages. Probably no Tayshrenn level powerhouses, but more than just a few mages scattered around. And don't forget, Bottle was 'just' a squad mage. Nil and Nether were mere tribal shamans. Widdershins, a mere squad mage, was fending off multiple Claw mage Mokra attacks at the harbour at the end of TB.
- Abyss, never underestimates the power of the dark side of the force, or a squad mage.
BUT... note that towards the end of TB, one of Laseen's Untan flunkies (the one who was sheboinging Keneb's wife) mentions that they have been fighting the Edur at sea by augmenting the mage complement on the Malazan fleet. It's left open that the Malazans aren't doing as well as the flunky claims, but it's certainly suggestive that they aren't quite out of cadre level or higher mages. Probably no Tayshrenn level powerhouses, but more than just a few mages scattered around. And don't forget, Bottle was 'just' a squad mage. Nil and Nether were mere tribal shamans. Widdershins, a mere squad mage, was fending off multiple Claw mage Mokra attacks at the harbour at the end of TB.
- Abyss, never underestimates the power of the dark side of the force, or a squad mage.
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#7
Posted 28 September 2006 - 09:14 PM
I was under the impression that the Grey Helm mage-guy (is destriant the title, i always get those mixed up) was repulsing most of the mage attacks, and the attempted fire attack...
But Abyss is right, mages are like sappers... the malazans are running out. Very fast. It seems like many people have 'minor' talents... that don't pan out to anything more... it was said in BH that using Mockra was the most common talent, and seemed much more widespread than anything else.
High Mages are either getting killed in battle, or in Laseen's 'Panic-Purges', And I doubt there was ever that many High-Mages. I would guess that they were, at first, a ruling council and leaders of whole mage battalions.
But Abyss is right, mages are like sappers... the malazans are running out. Very fast. It seems like many people have 'minor' talents... that don't pan out to anything more... it was said in BH that using Mockra was the most common talent, and seemed much more widespread than anything else.
High Mages are either getting killed in battle, or in Laseen's 'Panic-Purges', And I doubt there was ever that many High-Mages. I would guess that they were, at first, a ruling council and leaders of whole mage battalions.
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#8
Posted 28 September 2006 - 09:18 PM
SE has touched on this:
From Pat's interview with SE
plus the empire's mage situation can't have been helped by the fact that a) laseen was paranoid and killed off a lot of the old gaurd high mages
there were a hell of a lot of magic users within the claw, which lasseen in her paranoia has kept round her for protection and lots of these have been killed of in the malaz island blood baths...
From Pat's interview with SE
Quote
- Where are all the mages? In Gardens of the Moon, it seems as though each army should have a cadre of High Mages, but by House of Chains, they're a scarcity. Dujek's Host was cut down to Tayschrenn after Tattersail's death, but Tattersail & Calot's earlier conversations implied the presence of more High - and presumably low - Mages. A minor point, but the Malazan Empire seems rather shorthanded in the powerful sorceror department, and I'm curious as to why.
It is indeed short-handed when it comes to high mages, even middling ones. Consider it this way. There are squad level mages in the armies, plenty of them. Most are mediocre but some aren't. Those who aren't have seen with their own eyes the appalling attrition rate among 'noted' mages. Accordingly, they're keeping their heads low because they're not stupid. We touch more on the mage-situation (specifically with Tavore's army) in the next novel. As it stands, apart from Tayschrenn the only other High Mage is one you all know well. Bad times indeed for the empire.
It is indeed short-handed when it comes to high mages, even middling ones. Consider it this way. There are squad level mages in the armies, plenty of them. Most are mediocre but some aren't. Those who aren't have seen with their own eyes the appalling attrition rate among 'noted' mages. Accordingly, they're keeping their heads low because they're not stupid. We touch more on the mage-situation (specifically with Tavore's army) in the next novel. As it stands, apart from Tayschrenn the only other High Mage is one you all know well. Bad times indeed for the empire.
plus the empire's mage situation can't have been helped by the fact that a) laseen was paranoid and killed off a lot of the old gaurd high mages
#9
Posted 29 September 2006 - 07:41 PM
@Obdi: he was keeping the flaming arrows and warren-gated attacks away. Widdershins was keeping the Mokra panic off the marines and Perish.
@IH: Excellent use of quote. Makes the point quite clear, esp. re Laseen hogging mages for her Claws.
- Abyss, bets Laseen was always picked last in gym class.
@IH: Excellent use of quote. Makes the point quite clear, esp. re Laseen hogging mages for her Claws.
- Abyss, bets Laseen was always picked last in gym class.
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#10 Guest_figroll_*
Posted 29 September 2006 - 08:41 PM
And let's not forget the purge - it's the opening scene in the series after all.
#11
Posted 30 September 2006 - 07:25 PM
then i think of something completly different if laseen was so paranoia whyd did kalam stoped hun ting her in dg never understood that and what about the army strenght
#12
Posted 02 October 2006 - 11:37 PM
right...
the edict against magic while laseen was regnet...
i'm sure a few high mages would have skipped out during that period...
worried about their future...
the edict against magic while laseen was regnet...
i'm sure a few high mages would have skipped out during that period...
worried about their future...
Question:
Does being the only sane person in the world make you insane?
If a tree falls in the woods and a deaf person saw it, does it make a sound?
Does being the only sane person in the world make you insane?
If a tree falls in the woods and a deaf person saw it, does it make a sound?
#13
Posted 04 October 2006 - 09:59 AM
With Lasseens purges who knows if there are any schools for learning magic left to accept new talent? Or have they just become mighty difficult to attend?
Btw. How do you suppose new talent joins the military academies/training camps? Do they have to prove that they are not overtly religious or god aspected?
Btw. How do you suppose new talent joins the military academies/training camps? Do they have to prove that they are not overtly religious or god aspected?
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#14
Posted 04 October 2006 - 10:27 AM
In the purges they killed anyone with even minor talent. This wiped out an entire generation of mages not to mention scaring off many from that path. I can imagine a child with talent being told by their parents not to use it and to be 'normal' out of fear
#15
Posted 04 October 2006 - 01:34 PM
Wouldn't the Trygalle Trade Guild also be a drain on military magical talent?
It's more lucrative work and shorter, despite the constant hair-raising nature of that work.
It's more lucrative work and shorter, despite the constant hair-raising nature of that work.
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#16
Posted 04 October 2006 - 02:37 PM
The TTG is on a whole other continent. It's not the same pool of talent as the Malazan empire.
- Abyss, talent scout.
- Abyss, talent scout.
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#17
Posted 04 October 2006 - 09:45 PM
One of the obvious yet hidden things about this series is that people move all over the place, even without magical aids. You've got a Thelomen land Magellan, nomadic tribesmen, messengers, assassins and so on. Word and people get around.
High level magi worldwide would almost certainly be aware of the Trygalle Trade Guild and make their decisions accordingly. In the real world, people frequently move from continent to continent to find jobs and/or escape situations. Why would it be any different on Wu?
High level magi worldwide would almost certainly be aware of the Trygalle Trade Guild and make their decisions accordingly. In the real world, people frequently move from continent to continent to find jobs and/or escape situations. Why would it be any different on Wu?
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#18 Guest_KaL_*
Posted 05 October 2006 - 12:33 AM
I thought I'd mention that whoever said it, the mage cadres were indeed much larger back in the earlier days of the war, I forget which book mentioned it but Mallet was the leader of a healer cadre (not cutters) and that speaks volumes about their losses.
#19
Posted 06 October 2006 - 01:16 PM
The purges have been mentioned before, but always in context with Laseen.
What about Kellanved's systematic destruction of most of the cults? As I recall, most of the powerful mages described thus far have been ex-priests, and with the elimination of the cults that identified and trained magical talent, there's going to be a shortage of mages in the right age group for military service. Laseen's been written as intelligent and efficient enough for her purges to be tightly controlled and not wipe out her mage supply unintentionally. She went after people, not organizations like Kellanved (excepting the Talon).
One other point: the sappers don't seem to be formally trained. There is one scene in the siege of Y'Ghatan where some regular soldiers are given munitions and designated sappers. They died almost immediately after running into a building (full of rebels) with sharpers in their hands. From this, it seems that Fiddler, Cuttle and Hedge weren't taught demolition skills; instead, they were lucky enough to survive the first few missions and then slowly put together enough bits of knowledge and ways to stay alive to become experts.
I'd imagine High Mages are made much the same way.
What about Kellanved's systematic destruction of most of the cults? As I recall, most of the powerful mages described thus far have been ex-priests, and with the elimination of the cults that identified and trained magical talent, there's going to be a shortage of mages in the right age group for military service. Laseen's been written as intelligent and efficient enough for her purges to be tightly controlled and not wipe out her mage supply unintentionally. She went after people, not organizations like Kellanved (excepting the Talon).
One other point: the sappers don't seem to be formally trained. There is one scene in the siege of Y'Ghatan where some regular soldiers are given munitions and designated sappers. They died almost immediately after running into a building (full of rebels) with sharpers in their hands. From this, it seems that Fiddler, Cuttle and Hedge weren't taught demolition skills; instead, they were lucky enough to survive the first few missions and then slowly put together enough bits of knowledge and ways to stay alive to become experts.
I'd imagine High Mages are made much the same way.
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#20
Posted 06 October 2006 - 01:29 PM
err thats not really true..
kell's purges targets cults which are not loyal to the empire and already have loyalty to the gods of their cults.. therefore they cannot become part of the armies mage cadre.. destroying them prevents the problems of treason later on..
lazeen on the otehr hand indiscriminately destroyed the mouse quarters which is a hotbed formagical talent in malaz island
regarding high mages.. they all have some sort of talents that are obvious that will be picked up and trained.. they are rare enough to not be expended so easily...
the mage cadres will pick up those individuals with the talents and train them.. they are not expected to develop their talents in their own
kell's purges targets cults which are not loyal to the empire and already have loyalty to the gods of their cults.. therefore they cannot become part of the armies mage cadre.. destroying them prevents the problems of treason later on..
lazeen on the otehr hand indiscriminately destroyed the mouse quarters which is a hotbed formagical talent in malaz island
regarding high mages.. they all have some sort of talents that are obvious that will be picked up and trained.. they are rare enough to not be expended so easily...
the mage cadres will pick up those individuals with the talents and train them.. they are not expected to develop their talents in their own

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