[Imperial Historian]

I'd always believed that the ice encasing was due to nightchill, after all she is the sister of cold nights, which definitely suggests a link of somesort to ice magic, but as has been said that passage is so confused that it could have been anyone...

[Aptorian]

I just reread the page in GotM were NC dies along with A'karonys, GotM, p. 77.

Nightchill is ripped a part by the demon before A'karonys is ice'd and Belurdan is busy with the demon. I guess it has to be Rake

... Unless a demon was summoned that throws ice or some unknown assailant was involved that SE has later forgot about.

[Midnight]

in MOI it is stated that Nightchill took out Akaronys before Tayschrenn killed her. So the wings of ice are from her...I believe the fact that the Akaronys' death happens after Nightchill's is an error.

[Aptorian]

How dare you dismiss my wonderfull quotes from GotM!

I guess you could sweep it off the table by calling it a GotM'ism. Except for the quotes from GotM, I also thought it was NC that was the bad guy.

But tay's explanations haven't been proven to be the absolut truth. In MoI, were Silverfox finally has merged all her souls, she still thinks that Tay's is capable of betrayal. Another part of GotM suggests that tay's is a ruthless Highmage, more than willing to destroy Tattersail and Parans minds to get the truths he wants.

As for Rake using ice, why not? He's the only archmage we know of, who knows what he's capable of. He has SD and KG to his disposal, manipulating a few other warrens can't be too much of a hassel But from his own recount of the battle it sounds like he was only using dark or SD and that the cadre killed itself.

But yeah, it could just be GotM'ism... I think I'm going to add this to the Q&A even though I don't think SE wants to answer that question yet.

[Clip]

As to OP, I think that the magic, which stems from the Jaghut, holding the warren together is dead or dying and that is why we have been seeing constant referances to ice, and glaciers, melting throughout all the books. After all, didnt Loric get greyfrog out of a wall of ice that was just starting to melt. Mabye all the glaciers in Wu arekept together by jaghut blood and magic and now that they are mostly dead or their blood diluted its falling apart. Just a thought.

[Dolorous Menhir]

clip;122442 said:

After all, didnt Loric get greyfrog out of a wall of ice that was just starting to melt.

Nope. L'oric got Greyfog from the "memory of Raraku" place where he encountered the Deragoth and his father. Nothing to do with glaciers or the Jaghut.

[Abyss]

There's a discussion in DG, by Sorno, iirc, that ancient Jaghut rituals keep growing and shrinking and causing all kinds of trouble.

If the question is how 'wings of ice' killed Akronys, as in if it was ice, then MUST it be Jaghut related, then i suggest the description is a visual one... ie: it was a wing shape with shimmering blue-white light or something similar, and not actual ice.

Also possible is simply that NC was an Elder God and she could use pretty much anything she wanted to.

It seems quite clear from Gothos's MT prologue ritual and Ganath's KChaincicle that no Jaghut ritual is 'forever'.

It also seems clear from MoI that the OP warren is suffering because of the Imass jihads.

At a minimum, Gothos, Gethol, Raest, Cynnigig, Huntress, the Seer and his sister, the Jaghut that Karsa sheboinged and Aramala the talking tree, are all still around, so i suspect that the warren is weakened, but not ready to die just yet.

- Abyss, yes, 'sheboinged'.

[GardenGnome]

Wasn't there ice involved in DG, when they brought down the Semk god?
Then again, they use a different magic system, so we can't really take that in here, can we?

[Tiger_sword]

Lets not forget the ice hold. It would seam that (for those that know how to) holds are easier to access as they are far more raw and undefined. Prehaps it is possible for someone to use ice magic via the ice hold (i was thinking along the elder goddess line here, but anyone could i guess)

[Clip]

you have to remember that OP is an elder warren, that means it relies on blood for power, and as jaghut blood is diluted through cross-breeding (eg the Jhag) then OP's hold on the world decreases. Ice, which is OP's aspect so to speak, starts to melt because there is less power to hold it together. We've seen many indications of rising sea level and glaciers rotting, so why couldnt that be to do with the collapse of OP?

[Aptorian]

clip;123282 said:

you have to remember that OP is an elder warren, that means it relies on blood for power, and as jaghut blood is diluted through cross-breeding (eg the Jhag) then OP's hold on the world decreases. Ice, which is OP's aspect so to speak, starts to melt because there is less power to hold it together. We've seen many indications of rising sea level and glaciers rotting, so why couldnt that be to do with the collapse of OP?

Whoa! Some Elder gods seem to need bloodsacrifices, why do you think that an elder realm needs blood aswell? That's just plain weird.

[Abyss]

clip;123282 said:

you have to remember that OP is an elder warren, that means it relies on blood for power, and as jaghut blood is diluted through cross-breeding ...

Interesting theory that Jaghut bloodline dilution is affecting the warren.

I am pretty sure tho', that blood sacrifice was an elder god thing.

We've seen that the Jaghut Tyrants may have been particularly brutal types, but they were the exception. The other Jaghuts didn't even like each other much, let alone legions of bloodshedding worshippers.

- Abyss, wants legions of worshippers.

[Dark Mac]

We even have specific examples saying that Elder Warrens don't require blood sacrifices. In HoC, the Imass say that Kurald Thyrllan normally functions fine without the blood rituals that the Tiste Liosan are making, and that those are an aberration. If KT normally works without blood, why would other warrens need it?

[Clip]

well, blood does seem to have a lot of power in it, so mabye OP takes its power from Jhagut blood, and since there isnt much of that left its power decreases. Isnt Gothos's ritual failing?

it seems to me that most elder warrens that require blood sacrifice (and blood sacrifice gives power wether its required or not) require any kind of blood, mabye OP is just picky, and it only can have pure Jaghut blood, so no cross-breeds allowed?

Also how do we know there is no God for OP, mabye some sort of master of the realm?

What if OP is within some sort of other Diety, like the modern warrens are in K'rul?


wow sometimes i creep myself out with these thoughts

[GardenGnome]

Concerning gods in OP: I think we have the same case here as with the Imass - they have outlived their gods. I can't really see Jaghut, atleast not the post-polis type Jaghut, as a religious people anyway, but who knows what they had in their earliest days. Some speculate that they worshipped the K'Chain, the same way Imass worshipped Jaghut Tyrants.

[The Rope]

interesting point. i was thinking that its just power. true, the warrens are aspected it seems, but that doesn't mean that a truly skilled mage could tap into the warren's power without tapping into the aspect, does it? OP is primarily ice-aspected - but maybe it wasn't that way originally? perhaps it was the Jaghut's natural resistance to cold and their use of it in that way for such a long time and so persistently that that aspected the warren?
if all warrens originally come from SD and darkness, then it may be possible to tap those warrens (even minutely) and bypass the aspect?

[Clip]

Who What Were;124425 said:

op is in krul like all warrens even sd and darkness

actually, the elder warrens were already around when Krul did his thing of taking in all of the suffering from Kallors ex-empire and made all of the modern warrens.
Same with the holds, they too already existed, and especially Starvald Demelain