[philospher77]

Blend said:

Except that he does accept that he was wrong... Take, for example, when he's talking to some random Malazans at the end of HOC and says to them that he was wrong to swear an oath to kill every last Malazan... That pretty much showed his understanding that he was wrong to so blindly swear an oath... And that he was wrong to think he could take out the Malazan Empire... And wrong that he judged an entire people by the actions of a few... I'd say he's pretty much come to terms with being wrong, and still doesn't care much about it... That's his charm, no?

The important word there is "was". Yes, he admits that he was wrong in the past. He never seems to think that he could be wrong now. That's the thing that I see missing from his personality. In a year or two, he might admit that he was wrong about what he thought now, but he never doubts himself at the time that he is making the decision. And he never takes advice from others, which is another thing I dislike about him.

Of course, right after I posted I thought of this. It seems to me that Karsa has changed what he thinks, but not how he thinks. And it's doing the second that is evidence of real growth in a character to me.

[Illuyankas]

So what about when Samar Dev, for example, persuades him to stop killing all the Edur? He wasn't right then, and accepted her idea easily as an alternative. Or when she gets him to 'play nice' in the town they start out from (forgot it's name). That's one person's advice he takes, with the urban scenes showing he can listen to someone who knows better than him in a given situation. Seeing as Samar is the only notable person he's met (better to say interacted with) so far in the 'later' part of the series, with everyone else being either stupid, malignant or unimportant, why should he listen to anyone else?

[Dolorous Menhir]

This thread needs more

WITNESS!

[philospher77]

Illuyankas said:

So what about when Samar Dev, for example, persuades him to stop killing all the Edur? He wasn't right then, and accepted her idea easily as an alternative. Or when she gets him to 'play nice' in the town they start out from (forgot it's name). That's one person's advice he takes, with the urban scenes showing he can listen to someone who knows better than him in a given situation. Seeing as Samar is the only notable person he's met (better to say interacted with) so far in the 'later' part of the series, with everyone else being either stupid, malignant or unimportant, why should he listen to anyone else?

The fact that it takes someone else to make him think that perhaps killing everyone and taking their stuff isn't the only way to do things makes me think that he hasn't grown all that much. He's been away from his people and culture for quite some time now, and yet he's still defaulting to "might makes right". By this time, I would expect an intelligent person to have realized that's not always true, and to be looking to others for advice about alternatives.

Karsa's the bully in the schoolyard. He's learned that beating up on the little kids can get him in trouble if the other powerful people see it, and changed his actions. But he still thinks he has the right to take the little kid's lunch money, and is just coming up with better ways of doing it. When he stops thinking like that, then I will think that the character has grown.

[Gem Windcaster]

philospher77 said:

The fact that it takes someone else to make him think that perhaps killing everyone and taking their stuff isn't the only way to do things makes me think that he hasn't grown all that much. He's been away from his people and culture for quite some time now, and yet he's still defaulting to "might makes right". By this time, I would expect an intelligent person to have realized that's not always true, and to be looking to others for advice about alternatives.

Karsa's the bully in the schoolyard. He's learned that beating up on the little kids can get him in trouble if the other powerful people see it, and changed his actions. But he still thinks he has the right to take the little kid's lunch money, and is just coming up with better ways of doing it. When he stops thinking like that, then I will think that the character has grown.

I agree with you. And I still don't know what the whole 'conquering the world' thing with his Teblor warriors is about...why does he want to do that? Because he thinks he can? Don't make much sense. And I don't like it. It sounds too much like something the CG would want.
It is possible ofcourse, that he has some grander plan with all this, but I doubt it.

[Red_orbiT]

You wonder if Karsa would still go for a fight with Iccy if he heard that Iccy is really strong?
I think nothing could spur Karsa to a fight against Iccy as much as hearing Iccy is really powerful.

[Ivan the terrible]

"Children from a dark house choose shadowed paths" Epigram on the 1st chapte in HOC.
How much can we expect Karsa to out grow the proclivities of his youth. Badly expressed perhaps i think the sentiment to lead his ppl to war is little more than a desire to save his ppl from extinction... I think he will eventuall lead his ppl against agreessors but not an invasion against children he is too smart for that.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Ivan the terrible said:

....agreessors but not an invasion against children he is too smart for that.

Indeed I think Karsa is assuming a role of judge in the series. SE always fascinates me by appointing the most arb character to develop into a fundamental individual.

Karsa's singular view of right and wrong is more derived from instinct and general ethics. He isn't the best person to raise as a judge but through all he has survived and is still surviving I'm led to believe he's being forged into something really extraordinary.

Anyhow he has my vote to be the next God.

[Folken]

I hope he dies...and doesn't ascend...*sigh* do not ask...I don't know where this hate stems from. I don't like him one bit. He annoys the crap out of me

[polishgenius]

Behind Fiddler, he's one of my second favourite characters, along with Cotillion, Quick, Bottle, Brys, Iron Bars, and Rake.


He's certainly getting more intelligent and that, but he wouldn't be Karsa if his first thought wasn't for his sword, he's not going to change that quick. He's quite young too.
Also, he sometimes shows an awesome dry sense of humour.

[Gem Windcaster]

polishgenius said:

Also, he sometimes shows an awesome dry sense of humour.

You mean dry as in a if-you-try-to-stop-me-I-will-cut-your-head-off
kinda way?

[Tattooed Hand]

Well, how do you expect his surprising gentleness with Samar Dev? He recognizes intelligence and savvy in her and treats her as an equal. Or, at least a witness.

[Greymane]

Didn't care for him much in House of Chains, but he really grew on me in Bonehunters. I wish he'd get off his "I wanna wipe out the human race" kick though.

[Yasnian]

I think we've seen Karsa develope more than most characters. Plus hes hilarious.

[Chance]

Greymane;105533 said:

Didn't care for him much in House of Chains, but he really grew on me in Bonehunters. I wish he'd get off his "I wanna wipe out the human race" kick though.

Word...

Karsa is some of the worst waste of paper SE has written until BH...where Samar Dev provides a very nice side kick for him making his parts of BH quite a nice read to exellent read...

[Aptorian]

Having read HoC from start to the end I don't understand why peple don't like Karsa. His development is by far one of the most profound and interesting.

I've just started the reread of HoC and Karsa is much more ignorant and perhaps even more arrogant than he is in BH. Even though the Teblor is a long lived race it's much more like reading a teenage character in (the start of) HoC and more like reading about a knowledgable, albeit full of himself, young man in BH.

Oh and that whole destruction of the Malazan Empire, is what I like most about him, even though I think he's lost interest for the moment. There's little difference between what the Malazan empire is doing to the wickans and what they are doing to the teblor... All though the Teblor are a bit more mean.

[Gem Windcaster]

Just look at us, arguing about this character like he is real, I for one understand and appreciate why SE created Karsa. He may not always be likable, but he certainly is interesting.

[Werthead]

Great character with a lot of inadvertant comedy inherent in him. In many ways the Lieutenant Worf of the MBF, or Conan with a sociology degree.

He also generated the single best moment in TBH:

Quote

"I think he's raping someone in there!"

:lachen70:

[Aptorian]

Well in a sense he was, that poor lizard...