[Kage-za]

Quote

I really think Cotillion is his right hand man, he is smart but not a genius. Cotillion seems to handle the more mundane aspects, somewhat like the manager while ShadowThrone is the CEO.

I think this is a good way to describe the way Kel/ST operates. He himself is very talented, but his greatest skill is gathering talented people (the old guard; now Cot, Aps, Kalam, QB etc.) and putting them in the best place to work for him. But I see no reason to suspect that at the end of the day, he is not the one who will call the final shots.

The best parallel to ST from our world is probably the Chairman of the only evil empire we have these days: Bill Gates. By all accounts he was a genius programmer who was sometimes a little unstable, took risks that some people would consider crazy (dropping out of Harvard), or highly unpopular (his devotion to closed-source development, anti-piracy, and sketchy business practices) and became the world's richest and possibly most powerful man. Still, he could not have made Microsoft without the right people, or the right connections to ensure that his (often inferior) products are positioned to be unavoidable for the average computer user. (He is also positioning himself for ascension when he steps down as chairman in 2008 with all the philanthropy).

Nobody would say that Gates or ST is right now the best programmer/mage/business or military strategist alive, but no one could deny their respective claims to genius either. No one else could have pulled off what they have done to create their empires. (No one else is ruthless/insane enough...)

Two other quick ways to look at the ST/Cot relationship:
1) ST as the conductor of a symphony, Cot as the virtuoso first chair violinist (you don't hear the conductor)
2) Cot as the exquisitely forged knife or sword, ST as the wielder

Of course, knowing SE, the real force behind Kel/ST is probably the Crippled God (wait to see what Panek does with his army of once crucified children without Apt to keep him in check)

[philospher77]

Dolorous Menhir said:

It's going to take a lot more than "Kellanved had help" to convince me he's not a super-brilliant empire-founding genius. Do you think Cotillion ghost-wrote all Kellanved's pithy sayings, do you think Cotillion came up with all the plans and schemes they have? Cotillion is not just the "muscle" of the duo, he's more than that, but Shadowthrone is definitely the "brains", I don't see how people can deny that.

Well, flip that, and you may see what bothers me about the praise that is heaped on him. Many people seem to think that he would have become Emperor without having his friends around to help him. Or, to project forward, how many people think that ShadowThrone will be able to take on the CG without Cotillion's help?

And I still think it would be neat if the CG is facing off against ShadowThrone at the end of the series, perhaps even at the end of a battle where the CG is gloating over ShadowThrone's dying body, and we find out that the final solution is something that someone like Laseen has been working on all this time while ShadowThrone has been providing distraction. What with Shadow being devoted to illusions and misdirection, I think it would be a delicious twist. But that's just me.

[Agraba]

Quote

I can still think of easier ways of doing it that don't involve slaughtering bunches of innocent bystanders. That doesn't seem like the action of a brillant strategist, to me.

No, killing an isolated village with powerful hounds from the shadow warren is very easy. And why not? Who said that intelligence comes hand in hand with morality?

I don't think Kel could have made the empire on his own, and he did need manpower, of course. But he was still the brains behind the operation. Brains need resources, but the brains still get the credit, not the resources.

Also, I sincerely doubt there would be something like a direct clash between the Crippled God and Shadowthrone. Ammanas must know that his power doesn't even come close, because he knows that it took Anomander Rake, K'rul, Kilmandaros(I think), as well as many other extraordinarily powerful gods just to chain that beast. No, the taking down of this fella will be a team effort, there won't be a single entity that is the central force of resistance. (Well, Fid's new deck suggests that it might be Icarium, but that still doesn't mean that Iccy will do it all on his own.)

[fan_83]

so basically you are arguing that any standard high mage could be coem emperor then if he made friends with dnacer and daseem ?

[Folken]

No one here is giving Kell all of the credit...but you just make it seem as if he was some guy that just hitched a ride with all these people and then all these said people used him to get powers of LESSER position and make him Emporer...yes...okay

Kellavand and Dancer were equal and still are. They rule together. Its a bit like Frank Williams and Patrick Head (Formula One team owners, dont worry), both are equal partners, both have their area of speciality. Frank Williams, the business man and Patrick Head the technical guy. Togheter they have been a formidable force, but Frank Williams gets all the perks, the team is named after him, he has the bigger profile with investors blah blah blah. But w/o Patrick Head, he'd be nowhere. Like wise Patrick Head would've been nowhere without Frank Williams...its a partnership. It's only natural, that the one holding the higher seat of power gets the credit.

No one here is claming that Kell did it all alone, we agree he had help. But how does that still not make him a super genius? He was the one that gathered the people around, they didn't go and find him.

[philospher77]

Jen said:

No one here is claming that Kell did it all alone, we agree he had help. But how does that still not make him a super genius? He was the one that gathered the people around, they didn't go and find him.

Just curious.. does it actually say that anywhere? From what I've read, the gang just showed up one day, and there hasn't been a lot of detail about when/where/how they dreamed up the idea. Now, since he was a tavern owner, it makes sense that the others might have gathered together at his place, in that terribly cliche way that adventuring parties meet in D&D, but I don't actually know what happened.

As a sidenote, having had my memory jogged that people did tend to think Kellenvad was crazy, does anyone else find it unusual that people put up with a crazy emperor for over a hundred years, especially after the campaigns started going bad? One would think that there would have been some disgruntled resistance springing up somewhere. Although that might have been offset by distance: Sure, things are bad over there, but that's way off on the other side of the empire from us, and things aren't that bad _here_.

[Wry]

I don't think there's any apparent discrapancy between shadowthrone and Kell. I mean, you've never even "seen" Kellavaned pre-accension, and very little of him afterward. I think the only pov for him is bonehunters (am i right?) and he seemed lucid enough. Simple fact is that despite knowing Cot better, and liking him more, you know next to nothing of ST's capabilities, mindset, or strategy. Infact the only thing we really know , with all the references to ST being stretched thin etc, is that he is up to alot that we dont see.

I always wonder why people seem determined to skew the story in favour of their more loved characters.

[Folken]

philospher77 said:

Just curious.. does it actually say that anywhere? From what I've read, the gang just showed up one day, and there hasn't been a lot of detail about when/where/how they dreamed up the idea. Now, since he was a tavern owner, it makes sense that the others might have gathered together at his place, in that terribly cliche way that adventuring parties meet in D&D, but I don't actually know what happened.

As a sidenote, having had my memory jogged that people did tend to think Kellenvad was crazy, does anyone else find it unusual that people put up with a crazy emperor for over a hundred years, especially after the campaigns started going bad? One would think that there would have been some disgruntled resistance springing up somewhere. Although that might have been offset by distance: Sure, things are bad over there, but that's way off on the other side of the empire from us, and things aren't that bad _here_.

k you know what you're asking for too specific a quote...it was either in Gardens of the Moon or Memeories of Ice, and there is no way I'm shifting through close to 1800 pages to find it for you

*dials V for Vaiski*...its been a while since we saw him around here

[Hume]

philospher77 said:

As a sidenote, having had my memory jogged that people did tend to think Kellenvad was crazy, does anyone else find it unusual that people put up with a crazy emperor for over a hundred years, especially after the campaigns started going bad? One would think that there would have been some disgruntled resistance springing up somewhere. Although that might have been offset by distance: Sure, things are bad over there, but that's way off on the other side of the empire from us, and things aren't that bad _here_.

Campaigns going Bad :eek: ? ? ?

In Kellanveds Reign ?

Maybe Korel..
They only really started going bad once Lazeen took over :cool:

[Dinivan]

hmm...Surly was a waitress in Smiley's, wasn't she? (some faint memory stirs)

And then I'd reread Nok's account in HoC at first, allthought it's not the most reliable of sources.

and then - though i can't say where it is - there's some quote that they were three, from the very beginning, what would suggest that the gang didn't show up from the start, but that it slowly grew.

[Hume]

@ Dinivan

What you say is true exactly..
This is the thing I always bring up in arguments when saying that that person may not be telling the whole truth.

The one you speak of in the Three would be Kellanved and Dancer of course and Dassem Ultor. The comment comes from Cotillion or shadowthrone on Drift avali, I think its cotillion. This goes against what Nok says in the same book.
There are 3 answers to this;
Erikson screwed up.. not likely
Nok is lying about the part with Dancer for some reason.
Dancer acted behind the scenes in the very begining without others knowing he was helping make the empire.

but the part about the gang slowly growin is detailed in Nok's acount.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Wry said:

I don't think there's any apparent discrapancy between shadowthrone and Kell. I mean, you've never even "seen" Kellavaned pre-accension, and very little of him afterward. I think the only pov for him is bonehunters (am i right?) and he seemed lucid enough. Simple fact is that despite knowing Cot better, and liking him more, you know next to nothing of ST's capabilities, mindset, or strategy. Infact the only thing we really know , with all the references to ST being stretched thin etc, is that he is up to alot that we dont see.

I always wonder why people seem determined to skew the story in favour of their more loved characters.

We do have a passage of pre-ascension Kellanved. When Duiker was reminiscing about being plucked from the ranks and educated into his role of Imperial Historian, he briefly described a meeting he had with the Emperor. I think he was described as having a few screws loose, but can't really remember.

This was in DG, when it turns out that Duiker learned his letters under the tutelage of Toc the Elder, at the same time as a young Toc the Younger (seems a bit redundant) - which is a huge timeline discrepancy.

[philospher77]

Jen said:

k you know what you're asking for too specific a quote...it was either in Gardens of the Moon or Memeories of Ice, and there is no way I'm shifting through close to 1800 pages to find it for you

I recall reading bits and pieces, but it just seems to state that "these people worked together, and these particular ones met first". Which doesn't answer how the first group met. Given that Kellenvad was busy running a tavern, it seems more likely that the others found him than that he was going out trying to recruit people. Unless he had a really good manager to handle the day to day stuff. On the other hand, I can see Dancer and Dassem hanging out in the bar, talking about what they would do if they ran the world, and Kellenvad chiming in with his two cents, until one day they all look at each other and say "You know... that just might work."

Of course, Kellenvad may have run a bar simply to try and entice the adventurers of his area into close proximity, so that he didn't have to travel to recruit them.

[Folken]

I dialed V and I got Hetan...meh...works fine. There you have it and yes as Hume pointed out...bad campaigns?

[Dolmen 2.0]

Does any one think Kellenved Dancer and Dassem may be related? just something to ponder I guess.

Another interesting point about kellenved, His knack for drawing people of ability to him. Is that genius or fate? IMHO I think its both. Kellenved just happened to know the best assasin, swordmen and mage alive. Dancer dassem and tayschrenn seperately could have forged an empire in their own right how does an insane maniac draw them to his cause? money? power? perhaps but the loyalty shared by Kell/Tay and dancer belies such superficial means.

I think the secret to ST and his brilliance is all owed to his raw instinct for identifying world changing individuals. We all read in awe of Dassem and Dancers CURRENT and past exploits and tayschrenn is in a class of his own but ST was Tays equal if not his superior. Who says Dassem and Dancer aren't the product of the trial by fire ST begun in Malaz city? Perhaps ST unlocked Dassem and Dancers true skills by utilizing them so extremely. The same could be said of surly, nok, urko, crust etc.

IN other words perhaps ST is the source of all the brilliance we see, kind of like Jose murinho. He buys the best and makes them better by putting them together.

[Aptorian]

I can agree with Surly, Dassem and Dancer reaching their peak through the trials of creating the Malaz Empire. That's the nature of SE's world, that under extreme surcumstances(sp?) people achieve their full potential. Think Trull, Kalam, Quick, the grey swords.

I don't think this counts with Tayschren since he was allready a High Priest of D'rek.

That Kellanved gathered such talented and powerful personaes around isn't accidental but neither is it because he knew them in advance or that they are all related. It's the empire, Kellanved's childs, biggest strength that it invades or conquors and then it awards loyalty and grants benefits for that loyalty and what service you can provide the empire.

[GardenGnome]

Dolmen said:

how does an insane maniac draw them to his cause? money? power? perhaps but the loyalty shared by Kell/Tay and dancer belies such superficial means.

It said in Gardens that most mages didn't understand loyalty, and never got the hang of it - with one exception, the old Emperor. I remember the passage quite well, think it was fairly early in the book...

[Dolmen 2.0]

Thats probably what I was getting at. There was something about Kellenved that endeared(Sp??) him first to the initial circle of three then to the entire malaz city. What gets me in BH is how laseen just throws all that away