[philospher77]

I'm not sure where questions about the series in general should go, but I figure this is a safe place, since spoilers won't be an issue. I had originally posted this in the Karsa/Icarium poll, but thought it might get some more discussion as its own thread. Plus, it's my favorite question to ask people I know.

I've been loaning these books to a friend of mine who has a very different philosophical outlook than I do. I love Icarium (and Mappo) and Trull, the sensitive characters who wonder how they impact society, while she finds them boring. Her favorites are Karsa and Rhulad, I believe because they are more "active" characters willing to go do what they think needs doing, while I find them a little one-dimensional, because they never take time to think about their actions and the consequences of them. I find it interesting that Erikson has both types of characters in the series, and both as major players. I think that it's part of what gives the series its wide appeal.

So, if Icarium is a "Captain of his Soul", and Karsa is a "Master of his Surroundings", who else goes into each category? And, do people tend to prefer one of the types over the other? In other words, if you like Icarium, is the probability higher that you like Trull than it would be if you liked Karsa?

[Dragnipurake]

Well, "Captain of the soul" may be the wrong way to describe Icarium. I like Karsa far more but I find trull a great character too. so, I dont know if you can differentiate the characters that way.

[Dolorous Menhir]

philospher77 said:

Her favorites are Karsa and Rhulad, I believe because they are more "active" characters willing to go do what they think needs doing, while I find them a little one-dimensional, because they never take time to think about their actions and the consequences of them.

I don't think this is a correct characterisation of Karsa, it's been made clear in his dialogue and actions many times that he is a deep and subtle thinker, and is profoundly aware of the consequences of his actions. See any conversation with Samar Dev.

That's the whole point of his character and the novel thing SE is doing, he's taken the Conan archetype and made him intelligent. And it's resulted in one of the best characters ever (my opinion).

[Rockyturnbull]

Quote

Elric with a sense of humour, who actually cares about other people (Icarium)

Have to take issue with that!! Elric is repeatdly referred to as grimly humorous and sardonic, he's not LOL funny but finds humour in his predicament. As for caring about other people? Come on, that's why he is such a tragic character he is tortured by the knowledge of his actions and unlike Iccy he doesn't get to forget (most of them anyway).

Sorry but I'm gonna stick up for my boy!

[Abyss]

The basis for their difference is rather profound...

Icarium, who wishes he was in control of his fate and probably should be, but isn't, because of a decision he made, and has no grasp of his past...

v. Karsa, who was not in control of his fate, but asserted control (heavily), and understands his past.

Moreover, Karsa is anything but 'uncontrolled fury' when he fight. He's apparently reckless in his choice of battles (that thing with the deragoth in HoC and the Nahruk in TB were just one step away from chugging a keg to prove you can).

- Abyss, is just waiting for 'ICARIUM SMASH!!!!'

[philospher77]

Perhaps I did not choose the best descriptions for the characters. To me, there is a real difference between Icarium and Karsa, which makes me like Icarium more and Karsa less. But it's hard for me to put my finger on it. If I had to elucidate it more, now that I have had time to think about it, it's probably best described as a lust for power. Karsa has no hesitations in thinking that he should be in control of the Teblor, and everyone else in the general area that his tribe is in. Icarium, while being just as powerful, and, in my opinion, much better suited to being a leader, has no desire to be one. Although we do have evidence that he was in the past, I have a feeling that he was probably a reluctant one.

So, Karsa is oriented towards dominating and leading others, whether they want to be helped or not. Icarium is oriented towards helping others when they need help, but then letting them get on with their life in their own way. Trull's the same way... willing to step forward and take charge when the occasion demands it, but not desirous of the position. Rhulad is the opposite... he took the sword (and got himself in the position that he currently is) because he wanted to be in charge.

[Gothos]

Icarium is too soft-hearted to be a leader. it takes more gut.

Karsa does what is best in his situation. He wants to stir the Teblor to become Toblakai again, and sees true that there is nobody else that can do that, that could lead him - he IS the champion of his people, their salvation, their glory. recognizing that is not lust for power.
I love it when people like to think of Karsa like if he was a mindless berserker. it's that type of people who die with surprise on their faces

I loooove Karsa. I don't like Icarium at all, liking Mappo more in the 3rd and 4th book of TBH. I like Trull very much (tho sometimes he's too soft), I feel pity for Rhulad.
such distinctive categories cannot be made IMO.

[blewin]

I like Icarium better because he hesitates over what he should and shouldn't do. He's not like Karsa who just does things without thinking much of the consequences (like how he provoked the entire town at the beginning of BH, and his dealing with the Edur, stopped by Samar Dev).

Icarium is also more sensitive and caring towards others. That's one quality that totally separates him from Karsa.

[Gothos]

Karsa not thinking of consequences? maybe he doesn't care? yeah go ahead, ignore him, yeah you do just that and go back to your oh-so-tragic-yet-with-power-to-destroy-worlds-and-a-fringe-on-his-face emo anime films

[dessembrae]

All throughout hoc we see Karsa thinking ahead. Assessing the situation, taking control and most importantly, gettin results.

Perfect leader if you ask me.

Icarium has a blessing in not knowing what hes done. If he finds out / remembers then hell probably shrivel up and die. lol

[blewin]

Karsa thinks of consequences when he's about to draw the entire Edur race down to those poor guys? he might think of the consequences in certain situations, but sometimes, his so-called righteous anger DOES get the best of him. Although my opinion of his has elevated in BH, I still like Icarium better.

now, if we could mash Icarium and Karsa, you'd get a perfect leader.

[Illuyankas]

No, he thought of the consequences then, blewin. He decided that, rather than killing a proportion of their forces over a long period of time, he'd go to their home and kill all of them at once, to save time

[Kage-za]

Icarium and Karsa obviously are destined for a round 2 so...

CRAZY THEORY: After all the dust settles in RG, Karsa ends up with no memory and a Gral caretaker.

[Gothos]

Illuyankas said:

No, he thought of the consequences then, blewin. He decided that, rather than killing a proportion of their forces over a long period of time, he'd go to their home and kill all of them at once, to save time

with anyone else, you'd laugh in his face when he'd say that.
but with Karsa, it's not so funny, especially for the edur.
I wonder if Rhulad can come back if he's cut to pieces and scattered on the wind...

[Abyss]

Gothos said:

...
I wonder if Rhulad can come back if he's cut to pieces and scattered on the wind...

Good question. Much debated elsewhere. But also, could he come back if shredded by Iccy's keening-razor-wind act?

And, just to complicate it more, if Rhulad killed Karsa, would he take on the chains of souls Karsa is dragging with him?

I wonder at who presents the better resolution to the problem of Rhulad - Karsa who might kill him, or Iccy who might kill him and depopulate the continent.

Whatever happens when/if these three meet, it's going to be MESS. Y.

- Abyss, resists making a 'Master of His Domain' joke in this thread.